INCMA Forum Posts Archive 10:
 
Date: 02/12/01 12:13:20 AM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Church Demo Opportunity

Some of you may know that I run a martial arts outreach program for my church. I teach Kenpo and some Danzan Ryu Jujitsu with the assistance of fellow instructors from the DZR dojo in town. We incorporate Biblical principles in our instruction as to self-control, benevolence and personal integrity. In each 1 hour class, I spend about 5-7 minutes on a relevant Scripture to training.

This morning the pastor of our church (about 1,000 attendees) asked me to think about how we could incorporate the MA program into one of the Sunday services. He suggested ideas that could tie-in with the drama department, or a demonstration of some sort. He even suggested something pertaining to the preparation for warfare, with regard to preparing the mind and body. I think he is looking for something more than a typical demo, kick-punch-kiai-kata. Needless to say I was a bit shocked, as I figured we were just one of those "out of the box" type parachurch programs that generally isn't put in the spotlight on a Sunday morning. This is an American Baptist affiliated church, not known for being particularly liberal.

Soooo... I am curious as to your thoughts or ideas of what sort of thing would you do in this situation. How would you want 1,000 people to see what the arts are from your perspective, rather than the crap that they might usually see on TV or film. I would also ask that you think about underlying messages pertaining to self-control, personal discipline, restraint, modesty and humility.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and ideas.
Respectfully,
Kevin Schaller 



Date: 03/5/01 03:07:27 PM
Name: George Spears

Email: curiousg63@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Church Demo Opportunity

I have been a youth minister in Southern Baptist churches for about 6 years now. I find demos very helpful in biblical illustrations. I especially find breaking of use. I will talk about the importance of aligning oneself with other believers and especially a body of believers. One board is easy to break (demo), two boards are more dificult and may require a different technique (demo), three boards are even harder (demo). At this point I take all the small pieces and expalain "although they may be small, there is no way I am going to be able to break a stack of small pieces stacked together. Therefore, as Christians, we have strength in numbers and from the advisary. I also lay a board flat one the ground to show one board with the right backing is unbreakable. The same can be said for a Christian who may have to stand alone, but with a good foundation and Christ behind they will not be broken! I'll explain more ideas if you want, either through email or on message board. If you don't want to hear more, I won't waste anymore of your time. Good Luck! (Or should I say 'May God bless your endevours!')  



Date: 02/13/01 04:29:46 AM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: KI and Christian Belief

I am teaching Tae Kwon Do, with some Aikido techniques thrown in. What I am looking for is how to relate KI (CH'I) and Christian Beliefs. How would I relate KI to my students without falling into some mystical (read magical) trap. I have been quoting scipture about how all things are made by God, and can be used to glroify Him. But if anyone else has another explanation I would really appreciate the insight. I recently gained 3 Christians as students and want to have an answer about KI for them. Another instructor once told me that KI is a "gift" from God and if used to glorify His name would not be considered to be "mystical or magical" in nature. Thanks in advance for your help.

For the Glory of Christ,
Ron  



Date: 02/13/01 11:46:50 AM
Name: Anonymous

Email:

Subject: Re: KI and Christian Belief

John Himes and I discussed ki/chi on this forum back in December. It's under the "qigong" post by Marc Paine on 12/5/00. Mark McGee also posted a response there.
I think a fair summary of that discussion is that ki is the breath of life from God (reference to Genesis). If you recognize this, and discuss ki as such, you'll be fine. Satan doesn't create anything new. He only corrupts and attempts to corrupt what God has already created. The Bible by itself can explain the martial arts just fine.  



Date: 02/14/01 09:12:47 PM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: KI and Christian Belief

Have you been able to look at the December discussion (still on the forum website)? I think it was pretty thorough, but please ask if you have questions or comments.  



Date: 02/16/01 06:56:51 AM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: Re: KI and Christian Belief

Thanks for the replys I am reading the December posts and Yiou have more than sufficiently answered my questions. Thanks again for all of your help.

In HIS service,
Ron  



Date: 02/14/01 02:56:59 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: counters to kote gaeshi

How do you counter "kote gaeshi" ?

This is a wrist lock or wrist throw. I think nearly every martial art style on planet Earth does it. Kote gaeshi is the Japanese name. Chinese styles (I now know) sometimes call it "reverse wrist press" or "white ape worships the buddha." Other styles call it "outer wrist throw." So that we're talking about the same thing, I'll describe the gross motion, leaving out the fine details: Grab the thumb pad of his right hand with your left hand. Roll it over, palm up. Keep turning it, so his palm is starting to face his right, your left. Step to his side. With your free hand, press down on the back of his hand (his knuckles) so as to force his palm to the floor. Either he falls down next to you, or his wrist breaks, or he gets out of it.

How does he get out of it?
I'd like to have several escapes. Joint locks can be divided into three phases: early, middle, and late. Early phase is when the attacker is positioning the appropriate body parts for the lock. Here, that's grabbing the thumb pad. Mid phase is when he's in position and is now starting the apply the lock. Here, that is when the hand is being rotated, and the wrist joint is almost tight. Late phase is when the joint is tight and pain is coming on. 



Date: 02/15/01 01:40:35 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: counters to kote gaeshi

Well, before it's locked in

you can use footwork to try to keep your elbow in tight and centered between your shoulders. This will prevent the painful 90 degree angle between wrist joint and elbow joint. Use your other hand to support or prevent pressure to wrist. And then step though to 10:00 and pivot counter clock wise and apply a joint lock of your own - kind of like a wrestling duck under.

If you are taller you can flow their arms counter clock wise over their own head as you take their back and apply a rear naked (or elbow strikes) or just step back to drop them.

Or punch him in the face with your free hand as they are trying to apply the wrist lock and go from there.

Sovann  



Date: 02/15/01 09:06:58 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: counters to kote gaeshi

It is important to remember that different styles do this technique differently. In Wudang, we have two ways: in one we pull the arm away from the body or across our own body before applying the lock (not used as a throw in this instance); in another we step into our opponent (across them) before throwing them to the ground. You should note that this is the opposite of Aiki-based throws, and escapes like the one Sovann mentioned will not work on it. I'm not saying that there aren't escapes, but I doubt you will have time to choose the appropriate escape in the time allowed.

An escape that I've found to work well in both instances, since this technique relies on a low, downward-facing elbow, is letting the arm fold and then driving the elbow upward. This neutralizes the reverse wrist press, but leaves your ribs unguarded. Your choice. Sovann's roll-under step actually is a good escape, setting your opponent up for your own reversal, but it is important to use your other hand to atemi any attacks that might come while you do it.

Good answer, Sovann. 



Date: 02/16/01 07:11:57 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: counters to kote gaeshi

Nice Marc,

My instructor would combine the two steps, pull arm across (suck) so I step forward and am grounded and cannot counter with footwork, then as I "come up" out of the step forward, he steps through (spit) using my energy to throw.

The first counter of squaring up was shown to me by a kosho instructor who "rooted" and squared up so the lock is only applied to the wrist, not into the other links of the chain. Once any lock is applied tightly/properly there's not much you can do - you always have to stay ahead of the flow.  



Date: 02/14/01 04:34:56 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: competitions open/closed

How many of you compete?
Those of you who compete do you compete in open or closed tournaments. By that, I mean do you only compete in styles that are open to all styles of martial arts, open, or closed to that of a certain style or organization that you are in?
If you do both, which do you perfer?
What are differences in rules and regulations for sparring, forms, and weapons, and any thing else?
What do you like of the rules, what don't you like? 



Date: 02/14/01 06:29:37 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Re: competitions open/closed

I regularly judge in open tournaments in this region. I am not fond of closed tournaments, unless they are reserved for kyu ranked (kids) only. I think, as in most things in life, that we must be exposed to new ideas, or we stagnate.

In general, I do not like tournaments, as my focus is self-defense and leadership development in my school. I usually have about 6-10 kids that will compete in a large local annual event, otherwise, we spend little time fooling with unrealistic sparring situations.

In the local events, I volunteer, as do just about all the local black belts, to judge and referee. Thankfully the major event is run by a great guy with high integrity and no tolerance for unsportsmanlike behavior. (my biggest complaint)

Regards,
Kevin 



Date: 02/15/01 09:09:52 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: competitions open/closed

Our school competes at only closed tournaments that I have attended first and approve of. We participate in Light contact point sparring. Several of the tournaments don't allow hand contact to the head. The AAU tourneys allow hands to the protected area of head. This seems like it would be more realistic but what it ends-up often for the little kids is just going after the head with some kind of slapping or anything they thing will work. I don't like that part. My family and a few more advanced & aggressive students participate in Olympic sparring tourneys also. They really like the olympic sparring because it is non-stop and very agressive.
I have a requirements that Black Belts applicants must attend 2 tournaments prior to testing. The 1st is to just give it a try. The 2nd is incase they had a bad experience and this would verify to them whether or not they really like it or not.
We use the tournaments as a confidence builder and sportsmanship lesson. By controlling which tourneys they attend I am able to choose ones that are run smoothly and by good people and that don't include people with questionable morals and that are out to hurt. I want my students to have a good experience. I will tell students that they should or shouldn't attend if I think they aren't ready and could get their confidence hurt.

David 



Date: 02/15/01 02:01:46 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: competitions open/closed

Open comps can be hard for a kenpo player because our forms are too hard for Soft style and to soft for traditional hard style. Some tourneys in our area have kenpo/polynesia division but those are the biggest tourneys. I enjoy competing in tourneys but the costs are prohibitive for me most of the time. So I was only competing a few times a year.

Sparring is fun, if you take it with a grain of salt. Some tourneys allow ALOT of head contact, just as long as you don't draw blood your okay. I've seen lots of concussions, injuries at tourneys. If you only practice for tournament fighting though you will develop some bad (ie: dangerours) habits. Right now I am training Vale Tudo, and the standup is boxing based. I am having to learn to tuck my chin and keep my hands up. I like it when they allow groin kicks and sweeps (even though I don't sweep very well). I don't like the "intention" rule where they give you a point for coming 4 inches away from the head - since I like to slip punches and duck under head kicks.
Stylistically, I don't enjoy TKD rule tournaments just because I'm much better with my hands than feet. God made me 5'4", 140 lbs. I've sparred with 6'1" in my weight class. In open tourneys with more emphasis on hands I would do okay, but TKD tourney requiring "trembling shock" vs a guy that tall - hee hee, forget about it!!! I can't stand chest to chest with my arms out waiting for the ref to break us - my training is to clinch and start throwing knees. Everyone should try it and experience it at least once - even though it's not my cup of tea I learned alot from it and I admire the skill that the TKD players have.
Same with watching forms of different styles, Shotokan, TKD, Wushu, Capoeria, Silat (yikes!), Hapikido - Basically IT'S ALL GOOD.

I like continuous sparring with medium to hard contact. I do better with point sparring because I'm pretty quick and I got "lucky" a lot and won more than I deserved to because it was over in 3-5 points. Since I didn't compete alot I wasn't a "regular" on the tournament scene and no one really knew my sparring style. My broken rhythm helped my luck alot. I haven't tried it yet but Sabaki rules would be fun. We sparred this way in our classes.

I've competed in stick fighting too and I HATE the Doce Pares, full body arm sparring. Totally unrealistic - no respect for shots what would disable you without the armor. It was first hit and no punching/kicking or grappling. The way I learned stick fighting was more Dog Bros style.

Tourneys can be fun and a way to meet non- christians that have the common ground of a love for MA. A lot of my students learned valuable lessons in humility when they lost a tourneys. Some gained a lot of self-confidence, being the first time they've done ANYTHING in public in front of an audience. Good experience for future demo team members. Good practice in your apologetic for Christianity and MA when you are sitting in the stands and talking with other competitors. If you haven't done it, try it.

Sovann



Date: 02/15/01 09:35:52 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: competitions open/closed

Those of you who know me from the board will probably think my response is predictable, but here goes:

I hate point sparring. It is a waste of time and doesn't teach anything valuable at all. It's like tag, and taller people have such an advantage that it is just silly. Don't get me wrong, I'm 6'2", but I don't like the mechanics of that kind of advantage. Intent points are stupid. I have entered my students in point sparring tournies (I won't let them do full-contact until they have done at least one point-sparring, for exp.), and I tell them to hit as hard as they want, just don't draw blood. I've seen too many people wanting to show finesse get clobbered, and the doctrine of light contact only is a farce. Point sparring also allows politics to play too big a role because in one fight solid hits will be counted only, but in the next every intent of the popular school's kids will be counted. It's a joke.

I also can't stand it when tournaments limit head shots. This teaches bad habits. When my classes spar, we hit groins, heads, whatever.

Now that I've said all of that, let me back up a little. I like point sparring for kids. They shouldn't yet be into that hard-hitting stuff (in my opinion), and it is nice to see them ease into fighting. I enjoy judging at open point-tournaments, and I usually try to deal with the kids. But adults in point sparring is kinda ridiculous unless they are beginners.

On the subject of full-contact TKD... its a great sport... I've enjoyed doing full-contact TKD in the past. It's a safe, fun adrenaline rush. I've had my nose broken, ribs cracked, etc. in full-contact competition... but I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Pax Christi

PS
I TOLD you that it would be typical Marc stuff. 



Date: 02/15/01 06:15:06 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: counters to sankyo

How do you counter "sankyo" ? It's a wrist lock. In aikido, it's the third technique they teach (san = 3rd, I was told). Ju-jitsu uses this same name. In chin-na, it's called "send the devil to heaven" and "back wrap hand," depending on the details. I don't know what it's called in hapkido, but I know it's taught in hapkido. And kempo. English-language systems often call it "standing center lock." There are many ways to get into sankyo. Here's one, leaving out the fine details:

Suppose the bad guy has a holstered gun, or a knife clipped to his jeans pocket. He reaches for it, so the lines of his torso and his bent arm make a triangle. You dive/run into that triangle, grabbing his hand on the way in, and spin 180-degrees under his armpit. Now you are standing next to him, facing the same way he is facing, and holding his hand with both of your own hands. From here, lift up, so as to make his elbow reach for the sky. This lifts him onto his toes. Simultaneously twist his wrist counter-clockwise as viewed by a gnat on his elbow. In twisting, you will turn your body 90-degrees to him, so that you're looking at his ear. This twist hurts bad.

How he gets out of it from here?

Here's another way into sankyo:
He grabs your right wrist with his left hand. Circle your hand clockwise under, around, and over his wrist, and grasp his hand from the top (the thumb side - you've got his thumb). With your left, pop his elbow so as to bend his arm, and grasp his hand. You now have both hands on his hand. Let your right hand slide down his fingers, so your left can get a good grip on his thumb pad, and proceed to twist his wrist into his body. Remember to lift up. His elbow shoots for the stars.

Again, how does he get out of it, from here?

It's even better if you step on his foot before you start twisting. Takes away his ability to walk.

The finishing move is to pull his hand on a diagonal trajectory to the floor (while maintaining the twisting action). He goes down in a very ungraceful plop.  



Date: 02/15/01 09:17:40 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: counters to sankyo

I have a very important note on this escape: sankyo is very dangerous (despite what you might think) because if you lock someone's arm in this way, you also set yourself up for sankyo to be performed on you. If you don't believe me, just get a partner and slowly play with the technique. I guarantee you will find the reverse-sankyo in 10 minutes tops.

While it isn't a reversal, I want to share a little secret from the vast stores of Qin Na. While your opponent's elbow is in the air, most Japanese systems rely on the twisting of your body to generate torque. In Qin Na, we create the same technique with no spin - very useful if you have fast hands and your opponent likes to stand with an open-hand kamai. Sankyo with a twist is fine, and a part of the Qin Na repertoire, but I wanted to point out that this technique capitalizes on a much simpler idea. If you can place one hand on the elbow, and turn the hand in (fingers toward the body, palm out - making a wheel out of their arm) then you can squeeze the top of the hand and the elbow together to create a very painful lock (same principle as sankyo), but harder to escape or reverse. Also, this can be used horizontally like nikyo. The squeezing of the pinky tarsal into the wrist joint is what hurts so bad, and is very easy and quick to apply, with no body twisting. Just a thought.

This same principle makes sankyo twice as hard to escape or reverse if you (the nage) place your free hand on top of the upward-pointing elbow and squeeze it toward the wrist. Hurts twice as bad and gives you more control.

Escapes:

A high sankyo is immobilized by getting your head through the triangle of your arm. A spin will also neutralize it. Sankyo is hard to escape without setting yourself up for other throws or locks... it is very good - that's why police use it for arrests so much. *ack* 



Date: 02/15/01 09:24:33 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Escaping almost any lock/throw.

While these escapes we're discussing are very difficult to pull off and usually have flaws themselves, I wanted to point out two very simple truths... one for the nage, and one for the uke.

Attackers: Almost every lock or throw makes you vulnerable to another lock or throw (usually the identical one you are using), so watch out for a swift and knowledgeable opponent.

Defenders: Aside from the reverse hammer lock, almost every lock or throw can be neutralized be either spinning the way your body doesn't want to spin (work with a partner slowly through lots of locks and you'll find that turning the counter-intuitive direction often stops pressure by locking the joint against your body itself, preventing further twisting, etc.) or by dropping downward. Only a few locks are immune to the downward dropping escape, and then only if your attacker is an expert at feeling you move - even then (s)he will have to move downward with you to maintain the lock, bringing groundfighting into the picture.

I recommend slowly doing all of your techniques and trying one of these two escapes/neutralizations. I guarantee the number of techniques they neutralize will stagger you. LOL

Other than these simple hints, I must tell you that most styles don't teach escapes or counters until at least brown belt level. So, if instructors are tight-lipped, I guess you'll just have to pay the piper. HA!

Until next time,

Pax Christi

PS
If I don't post for a while, ninjas have probably been sent to assassinate me for sharing proprietary information. ROFL (I hate that secretive 007 stuff.) 



Date: 02/16/01 12:05:38 AM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Re: Escaping almost any lock/throw.

Do you use any "iron shirt" techniques as you set up the counters, in order to offset the initial locks?

I agree with you on the secret business. While many may indeed be clueless, the information should be presented honestly.

By the way, I really appreciate your posts and comments.
Warmest regards,
Kevin  



Date: 02/16/01 04:47:22 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Escaping almost any lock/throw.

In response to the iron shirt question:

Most chinese internal stylists (like myself) choose a single specialization and stick with it throughout their career. I had the choice of tiger claw or qin na as my specialization (after all the techniques were mine from our high form). I tried tiger claw for a couple months but rejected it because it wasn't soft enough to mesh well with my internal body movement. Iron shirt/palm was never an option for me, but I find it fascinating.

While I don't use Iron Shirt/Palm to set up counters, I use classic internal/qin na stuff. I drop my energy and flow with the first movement they use to lock me, then go for the reversal. I also have an Aiki background (Weeping Style within Obata's system for 1.5 years and now I'm in Tomikiryu Aikido), and I have found that the soft approach works well against both. I must admit that I can see the benefit of the Iron specialization versus a Jujitsu practitioner... I'd love to hear more about the possibilities from someone who knows more about it.

Pax Christi

"...and then you break his arm - in Christian love, of course."
-Marc Paine  



Date: 02/15/01 11:59:18 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Demo idea-suggestions please

Kenpo Demonstration Concept

Setting: Carson Valley Christian Center, regular services, Saturday evening plus two Sunday services. Total attendance 1,000 +/-, performance to occur on the main stage, roughly 60’ x 25’

Number of participants: 6

Plan: Sanctuary darkened as we assemble. One participant takes a kneeling position on center stage-front, the remaining 5 take positions about 10’ out on a semicircle. A pinpoint spotlight will illuminate the kneeling member and a voice over on the PA will begin a prayer, including Eph 6:10, about a minute into the prayer, the 5 members will begin a synchronized kata, probably short 3 coupled with short 2, or maybe long 3, fanning out away from the kneeling member. The kata members will be performing in the shadows. Part of the prayer will include the challenge of facing so many temptations from so many different directions, hence the simultaneous kata. In addition, the prayer will include how God can use our talents in unusual ways, if we simply let Him take control in our lives. During the prayer, the only other sound would be wind chimes. The demo and prayer would run about 3-5 minutes. At the close, the stage would go dark, we move the lectern to position as Pastor John steps onto the stage, and we exit the stage before the lights return.

Pastor John’s message would reflect upon Eph. 6:10-18 as well as the parable of the talents.

This is one of several concepts that might be used and the pastoe has indicated that he would like to see several, including drama and testamonies. I am working up the outline of the prayer and will post it next week. I would really appreciate your comments and suggestions.
in His grip,
Kevin 



Date: 02/16/01 06:49:48 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Demo idea-suggestions please

From what I see that sounds pretty intersting, the set up and such.
So your martial arts is combining with a drama team? If so, that is really an interesting combination, but I can see it working.
I only wish I knew your style, to get a visual idea of the kata going along with it.

Keep us posted,
I'm intersted in how it all will work together.
Vicki

Also with him kneeling in that positon, saying a prayer and quoting Ephesians 6:10 do you plan on him dressing up maybe by putting on gear, to prepare? You know what I mean?  



Date: 02/16/01 07:04:48 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Demo idea-suggestions please

As they fan out, have participants do short form or long form in mirror image. Ie. have one person start out long 2 stepping forward with right inward block for Four Swords and mirror image starts stepping with left inward block. We've done it in the past and it looks pretty nice.

My advice - pray, pray, pray and pray some more.

Also, in representing the battle between Light and Dark, get together with drama team for advice on putting more emotional "intent" into the forms. I hope you know what I mean - like when I do my version of Tiger and Crane form which combines hard and soft style I've spent a lot of time developing the contrasting physical movements but also expressing "hardness" and "softness".

Bo staff and sword forms, double stick sinawalli to add the "noise" of combat would keep attention also in representing the battle raging and sword of the spirit. If you have REDMAN or similar type armor you could equip a representative "warrior" as the passage is read - girding him with the different parts of the spiritual armor. A belt, chest protector, foot pads, etc.

Choreographed sparring with a circle of folks in white gis protecting the one kneeling in prayer from folks in black/red/dark gis might also be effective.

The instrumental by Michael W. Smith based on the Peretti novels - you remember that album? would be good to have the darkness present and it builds in tension and in tempo.

Sola deo gloria,
Sovann 



Date: 02/19/01 05:15:06 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Prayer

Martial arts aside...

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and not "mega-churchy" enough. I don't think it is reverent to be doing the demonstration during a prayer. I don't care if it is pre-recorded or something. I mean, a prayer is a prayer to God, and if we make it just a showmanship thing, then I don't have any respect for that. Now, if you had the prayer and then played music or had a voiceover during the demonstration... I don't see a problem with that.

Again, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think prayer is holy and not to be cheapened.

Overall, I'm not very impressed with the idea of a martial arts demonstration during the church service. This is holy time set apart to receive from God. I know that isn't a very popular notion in today's churches, but it is the truth. Despite what worship has become, it is not something we do for God. Corporate worship is a time to be strengthened by God for the service we do the rest of the week. The early fathers of the church were very clear on this.

Sorry to be a downer. I know everyone will do what they want anyway, but I felt I should interject another viewpoint to think about.

Pax Christi  



Date: 02/20/01 08:37:52 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Prayer

The way I feel about worship it is how you praise your father above in heaven.
In that, we all have special talents, and such, some can sing, some can dance, some can write, poetry, all are "arts" but why not praise your father if you have talent in the "martial arts" as well?
God knows what is on the heart, and if you worship him with your heart, and not just by your "talent" then that is what is best. God knows we are not all perfect in everything, and also God knows what is in our heart. I personally can not sing, and when it's time to go to church (when I'm able to go) I feel embarassed to sing, because I can not sing. I know that God doesn't mind if you can't sing or not, but I still dont' like others to hear me, especially after being asked by a youth choir when I was in highschool to find some other activity, because I couldn't sing.

As long as you do things for God you shall be ok, but when it becomes anything but that, it shouldn't be classified as worship.

That's just my thought,
Vicki 



Date: 02/20/01 07:29:36 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Prayer

Marc,

I understand the concern for reverence in worship and not having a motive of showmanship but I must disagree that worship is not something we do for God (and I don't think you're being old-fashioned ). It certainly is something that we do for God. God seeks worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Worship is many things, it is declaring the "worth-ship" of God. It is responding with all that we are to all that He is. It is literally bowing down prostrate but it also includes many actions such as shouting, singing, adoration, praying, shouting, marching, dancing, serving one another, the ministry of the Word, the Lord's supper. All of this and more is a part of worship. And part of the benefit of worship is being strengthened and transformed in the presence of a Holy God. As Robert Webber titles his book, "Worship is a Verb". It is not a spectator sport. It should not only include reverence and fear of the Lord but rejoicing and praise. I don't understand what you mean by what the early fathers were clear on. Worship is not only to be done on the Lord's day, but we are to live daily lives of worship.

This brings up the issue of what role does MA play in our lives? I agree prayer is holy, but how does the demo cheapen prayer? Are the MA a secular compartment of our lives that is not holy or are all of our lives meant to be set apart (sacred/holy) unto God, even our practice of MA?

Maybe a karate demo would be a stumbling block or distraction for someone to enter into worship. I'm not trying to say it is for everyone everywhere at any time. But worship is not just solemn reverence, waiting on the Lord and being still. This demo can convey and highlight the spiritual truth being taught. Hopefully, Kevin's pastor has a sensitivity to where his congregation is at and that he is earnestly seeking the Lord for this element to be added to the worship service. My sense is that Kevin is doing this with fear and trembling and not just for showmanship.

That said your suggestion to do the music after the prayer might be more appropriate.

Just MHO,
Sovann  



Date: 02/21/01 03:40:08 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Reply to both...

First of all, let's not confuse prayer and worship. Secondly, I am coming from a more traditional view which includes concepts such as "holy space" and "holy time" and liturgy, which I recognize most of mainstream Christianity (evangelical, anyway) has decided is useless and has chosen to throw out. I recognize that. However, I'm just trying to argue the other side. "As iron sharpens iron..."

Back to my original point... Just because the church has become infinitely individualistic and sees the diversity of forms of worship as a true blessing, prayer is not worship. That is to say that all prayer might be said to be worship, but all worship cannot be said to be prayer. Prayer has a specific purpose and it is clear from the historical liturgy of the Church (and of Judaism before it) that corporate prayer should unite the body in will and purpose. Corporate prayer is not a time for everyone to "do their own thing." Again, I'm not arguing for a certain viewpoint... I'm just sharing some facts (which are beyond interpretation) about corporate prayer. You decide if a martial arts demonstration can possibly fulfill the role of corporate prayer.

Do I have a problem with people being asked to do martial arts in the service as a praise to God? Not really. It's not my thing, but I don't see a real problem with it. I work out in the chapel and keep workout clothes in my office... I always dedicate this time of training to God and offer it as praise to Him. However, if this time is to be a time of prayer, it should be prayer. If it is a time of worship, go for it. Don't confuse the two and lose both.

Pax Christi 



Date: 02/21/01 04:55:32 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Reply to both...

From what I understood, this was a prayer to set up a demo, not just a regular prayer, so that may be where our differences are.
But I do recall from a Bible Study I am currently in at school that covers how to pray. You don't just to pray for what you want, and that's it.
What I mean is this. For example, I just got an Email from Jeff about the kids in his martial arts class. From what I am learning, I am told not to just say God watch over them, and let them be ok, but instead to do it, like this:
God please watch over the two kids especially Luke in this time of his life, for I know you can heal, for you are the Healer, (which is a worship in some sense, because you are worshipping Him for who He is, and not just for a prayer of action), do you understand what I'm saying?
I know that you can worship God in many ways, some in prayer, some in singing, some in dance, and other ways too. I personally plan to worship him by reading his words, writing my poetry with Him in it, and also, when I end up opening up my own martial arts school with a demo.

Again, I feel that a prayer for a demo, that is meant to have actions around it, is not exactly the same as a prayer that is meant between you and our Creator. That's just me, but for now, I'll leave this one alone, for I do not want to strike any arugments that may lead to disaster in the near future. 



Date: 02/26/01 03:22:58 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Demo idea-follow-up

Marc, I appreciate your points about prayer, referencing both corporate and individual. The demo concept was to connect the idea of spiritual warfare within the setting of a martial arts student's prayer. As this is a touchy subject, I am directing my pastor to this forum to review and comment with me.
Sovann & Vicki, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Sovann, the concept of mirrored kata sounds interesting and I was already going with the concept of dark uniformed "adversary".

Our pastor wishes to have the program integrated into a service and solicited suggestions from me. I am shying away from a "self-defense" demo, as Kenpo is pretty nasty and would not project the kind of message I think is appropriate. I also want to stay away from flashy demo stuff that is common to most demos. This is not easy!

Any other comments or suggestions would be welcomed. Side note, I just returned from the American Jujitsu Institute national convention in Hawaii. At the Saturday evening dinner, the head of the Karate division, Professor Lee, prayed over the event in the name of Jesus. Times are indeed changing.
in His grip,
Kevin 



Date: 02/16/01 11:53:31 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: California Work-out

My family & I are going to be in California in March and it would be neat if I could have the opportunity to work-out with some of you who might live in California. We will be in the L.A. area March 12-14. Then the San Francisco area March 15-17. If anyone is interested let me know.

David 



Date: 02/20/01 04:20:17 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: counters to nikkyo

Nikkyo = S-lock, large hand wrap, small hand wrap, small wrap finger. Probably some other names too.

There are many ways to get into it. Nikkyo is not a throw like kote gaeshi or sankyo. It's a lock. The receiver is supposed to drop to his knees in pain. Here is what it looks like, once you are in it:
Think of making a swan hand shadow. Bend your right arm at the elbow and wrist, so it's in an "S" shape. Now rotate the entire "S" 90-degrees, so that your wrist is in front of your sternum.
The other guy grabs your 4 fingers (3 are enough, though, if his fingers are big) with his right hand, and pushes down on your elbow with his left. He then and applies downward pressure on your wrist. Ouch. Instant pain. To make it more secure, his left hand could instead clasp your forearm.

How can you get out of it?

One escape is to raise your elbow higher than your wrist. Elevation releases the pressure in the wrist joint, allowing you freedom of movement to wiggle/strike/yank your way out. That is why I said the other guy has to push your elbow down before he applies pressure to your wrist.  



Date: 02/20/01 06:18:17 PM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: Re: counters to nikkyo

I have had some sucees avoiding Nikkyo by using the unbending arm exercise as my opponent starts to apply Nikkyo. This stops the bend in your arm and the pain that gose with the lock. 



Date: 02/23/01 07:40:07 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: counters to nikkyo

Let loose with a blood-curdling scream as my knees hit the ground.
Hopefully, that will shock them into letting go, then I will strike to the groin with my other hand.

Umm, just kidding.

That lock really hurts, only counter I can think of is pre-emptive counter-grab. But really haven't had it applied to me much since it is pretty "precise" or "technical". When we "play" we usually get bent wrist lock and arm bars, not this lock.

Have you ever pulled this one off in sparring?

It is nice as a part of a come-along lock flow. But think the version in which you grab the hand more realistice than the one in which you pin the fingers from the outside.

- Sovann



Date: 02/21/01 04:58:23 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: counters to nikkyo

Just a thought:

Can you also state the English name to these various strikes and such that you are trying to figure out conter movements to?
I do not speak much Japanese, maybe number 1-5 in Korean, and no Chinese at all, so the terminology I am so confused in. It's hard for me to wonder what exactly you are trying to explain by just reading, for me.

If we have an English term, this may be something I can try to respond to.

Otherwise, I have no clue to what this topic is about.

Vicki  



Date: 02/26/01 07:14:51 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: counters to nikkyo

Hi Vicki,

Try to find a copy of "Small Circle Jiu-jitsu" by Wally Jay or an Aikido text. If you've seen the Steven Seagall movie with him on the train (I can't remember the name) this is the joint lock his daughter does.

Sovann  



Date: 02/21/01 05:05:59 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Prayer Requests

Hi,
For those of you who know, I live with OCD, and for those of you who don't, you do now. OCD is a chemical imbalance in the brain. OCD is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which is the act of doing something repeatally with no intention of doing so. Some acknowledge they do it, while others are in denial, or have no clue that they live with it.

Examples to OCD are people who wash their hands 50 times a day, afraid of any type of germs. Some of these people go to the extreme of wearing gloves every day, everywhere they go, or flush the tolite with their foot, then still have to wash their hands. This is one of the most common versions of OCD.

I however live with one of the rarest, in fact it probably is the rarest. I first had noticed it when I was 12, but it wasn't until I was 17 that I knew I was doing this. My version of OCD deals with nothing that makes sense. It is more common in females before the age of puberity, 4% of the world has it, and most will have it for the rest of their lifetime. So far I've had it for 12 years.

Handwashing OCD can make sense, since germs can make you sick, or even some that will kill you, but what I have, makes no sense. In fact, I still do not understand it, or it doesn't make any sense. Medication usually consiststs of Paxil, Zolof, Prozac, Ludimil, or others, but in my case medication does not work.

What I am asking you, is because it is triggered more by anxiety and right now with taking 17 college hours, and working at the number 1 Wal-Mart in the nation in sales, both Saturday and Sunday I'm going though a lot right now, with other issues on the side. I am asking for my brothers and sisters in Christ with the INCMA to keep me in prayer, for I know with your help, the help of Christ, and myself, I can overcome this situation so I do not have to live with OCD. I know however, this is one thing I can not do alone.

If you have anything you would like me to keep in prayer, I'll return that favor.

Thank you,
Vicki 



Date: 02/22/01 02:10:58 PM
Name: Philip A. Payne

Email: fiw@angelfire.com

Subject: Re: Prayer Requests

Vicki,
I'm sending a copy of your post to each of the Ken-shen ryu schools so that you will be added to their prayer list. We apreciate the offer for a favor in return, but there is no need. When we sit at the wedding feast, He will repay us.
Yours in the warrior tradition,
His humble steward,
Philip A. Payne, benefactor.  



Date: 02/22/01 02:44:34 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Prayer Requests

> If you have anything you would like me to keep in prayer,
> I'll return that favor.
>
I'll make that trade.
A summer law clerk job for me. I could get "a" job easy enough, but I don't want just any job. I want the right job. I've been trying to find the job I think God would have me choose, but as of yet, nothing has worked out. Worried would be too strong a word, so I'll say my concern level is rising. My prayer is that my ongoing prayer would finally be fulfilled by me finally getting the summer law job that God picked for me. 



Date: 03/1/01 11:27:15 AM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Prayer Requests

Vicki - I will pray for you. I also hope you would consider finding a local church body to edify you and fellowship with you. You not only need us to pray, but someone to sit by and pray next to you and give you a hug when needed.

Please pray for me and my family as we are in the process this month of buying our first home. It has been a rollercoaster experience. God is stretching our faith even more and proving again and again His grace, provision and love.

Abiding in Him,
Sovann  



Date: 03/14/01 09:53:21 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: ongoing job hunt

Job hunt has been unsuccessful. I'm a little depressed about it. I like to think it's a blessing, though. The blessing is that I'll get to spend more time with my little daughter (at the beach no less), and more time doing arnis. And Blues guitar, too, with my daughter, when grandma buys her a guitar. She's certain that she knows how to play, so I asked her to teach me.

I really, really, really need a part-time job the next two semesters, though. Really. I want a position with a nearby City Attorney, and I want them to keep me for both semesters so that I'll get good at it. I'm thinking being an Assistant City Attorney after graduation would be a perfect job for me.  



Date: 02/23/01 10:51:03 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Bible Study w/ particular Martial Arts lesson

For those who teach a Christian martial arts or take from a Christian martial arts style, and have Bible studies that are related to the martial arts lesson how is it done? What are some of the lessons, and some of the Bible versus and section of topics? What other information is shared? Do you allow your students to engage in asking questions and feedback or do you just teach a lesson and them move on? What else do you do that may be informative?

Vicki

The only things I can think of are versus from the Bible that coorespond with certain classes of sparring etc.
Sparring for an example has two, which I misplaced the verse.

"An athlete does not win the victor's crown inless he competes according to the rules."

&

"Put on the full armor of God so you can take a stand against the devil's schemes."

Of course, Philippians 4:13 goes with everything, "I can do all things though Christ who gives me strength." Date: 02/26/01 04:08:53 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Re: Bible Study w/ particular Martial Arts lesson

Hi Vicki,
You could spend a month just on Eph. 6:10-18. Spend some time discussing what the various pieces of armor protect and add practical applications. I've also used Proverbs extensively, along with 2Tim 2:3-5 & 22-23.

Best regards,
Kevin 



Date: 03/4/01 12:25:08 AM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Bible Study w/ particular Martial Arts lesson

One of these days I'll try to get you some of these, Vicki, but right now I'm incredibly busy. There really are a lot of martial arts stories in the OT, especially. Check out David's "mighty men," the many uses of the term "mighty men of valor," Ps. 18 and 145, the many weapons listed in the Bible (sword, spear, quarterstaff, bow, nunchaku--well, maybe not the nunchaku!).  



Date: 02/24/01 10:01:26 AM
Name: Philip A. Payne

Email: fiw@angelfire.com

Subject: Re: A new way to look at forms?

I consider kata to be the lifeblood of my system. Study and UNDERSTAND just one kata nad you will be deadly. Recently one of my students who is a cop had to stop a guy who is known to be a black sash in kung fu. He did it with relative ease using only moves from his kata (he only knows one).
The other guy probably knows tn or so kata, but the question is does he KNOW them or does he just know them? My students spend (on average) nearly a year on each kata before learning the next. Some say I stress kata too greatly, but it seems to work.
On the other hand I know some really great martial artists who have never bothered with kata. Still, I wonder how much better they would have been if they had studied and UNDERSTOOD just one kata.
Yours in the warrior tradition,
His humble steward,
Philip A. Payne, benefactor.  



Date: 02/24/01 03:39:43 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: understand the kata

>>
I consider kata to be the lifeblood of my system. Study and UNDERSTAND just one kata and you will be deadly. Recently one of my students who is a cop had to stop a guy who is known to be a black sash in kung fu. He did it with relative ease using only moves from his kata (he only knows one). The other guy probably knows ten or so kata, but the question is does he KNOW them or does he just know them? My students spend (on average) nearly a year on each kata before learning the next. Some say I stress kata too greatly, but it seems to work. On the other hand I know some really great martial artists who have never bothered with kata. Still, I wonder how much better they would have been if they had studied and UNDERSTOOD just one kata.
>>

The important word is "understand." I've met only 2 instructors who "understand" the kata/forms/jurus they teach. Really, really, understand them. Every other karate, TKD, kempo, and ju-jitsu instructor I've met did not understand the katas, and how sad it was. The students were deceived into thinking they were learning the art, when actually, they were not. They were learning how to dance. A bold statement by me, but that's how I honestly feel about it. Lack of understanding --> you're not learning how to fight.

I've just begun to learn these new forms (silat jurus), and to learn to understand them. And I'm thrilled. A whole new universe has been opened up to me. It's like starting over as a white belt. I'm thrilled by it.

You're right -- a deep understanding of a kata makes you deadly in a fight. It also makes you humble and gentle in life. And that's what the martial arts is supposed to be about, says me.  



Date: 02/27/01 09:13:27 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Where to find Martial Arts Art

I'm looking for any artists pictures of drawn martial arts in action, of people kicking, or punching, or doing various movements in sparring or forms, without anything conflicting the Christian beliefs. I like the ideas of the posters Century has with the "Attitude" and other posters with a saying at the bottom, and a martial arts photo in the center, but am trying to make some with drawings instead of photos of celebraties.

Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks 



Date: 02/28/01 01:43:40 AM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Where to find Martial Arts Art

It's very easy to scan photos and add your own scriptures/messages to the pics to make a great banner or tshirt or whatever.

Pax Christi 



Date: 02/28/01 07:58:38 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Where to find Martial Arts Art

Yes, I know that but I am looking for drawings or art work.
I dont' want to use clip art, for they are not for commercial uses, and I do not want to use photos, because I don't know the people in the photos, or I do not have a class right now, this is all for the future.
But thanks.