INCMA Forum Posts Archive 11:
 
Date: 03/2/01 12:43:17 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Selling instructional videos

Hate to do it but I'm selling some videos.
I have two George Dillman, two Joe Moeria (Blue belt) from Panther, and few PFS/Vunak vids and first two tapes and Leglock tape of Pedro Carvallho series one. As I train through the rest of the Pedro series I will probably sell those too. (It is a very good series).
The Headbutt, Knees and Elbows tape is one of the most entertaining instructional videos I've seen. And the Advanced Knife Fighting is well done also.

Am willing to trade for JKD/FMA/BJJ also.

Asking $15 for each tape and I'll pay shipping. If I don't get any takers I'll probably post them on EBAY.

Post any questions about the tapes here. And while you're at it, post your favorite instructional tapes.

Thanks, Sovann 



Date: 03/2/01 12:44:13 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Selling instructional videos

Oh, I forgot my Dog Brother tapes too. 



Date: 03/2/01 08:16:44 PM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Re: Selling instructional videos

What's a "Dog Brother?" 



Date: 03/2/01 09:48:35 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: what's a Dog Brother?

Heh heh heh! I'm sure Sovann can tell you better, but I just had to put my 2 cents in. The Dog Brothers are crazy men. They're nuts. The Dog Brothers is a group of 5 men, or maybe the number has changed, in a Los Angeles suburb near where I live. They do Filipino stick fighting with little or no padding, and they go full contact. "Higher conscienceness through harder contact" is their catch phrase. You think you know how to fight? You think you're good? Well then, come on over to their backyard. They probably have a studio now, but at first it was their backyard. They want to see if your technique really works when they hit back hard, really hard.

Think of NFL football with a stick. Whack!

The Dog Brothers soon realized that every fight could become a wrestling match, even with sticks, so they incorporated Brazilian Jiu-jitsu into their fighting. The Gracies and Machados live in Los Angeles suburbs too.

I'm all for realism, yes, but full-contact stick fighting for mere training purposes and bragging rights week after week just ain't my thing. It's insanity. But, the Dog Brothers have done quite well in some of the Filipino tournaments, and they show up at Cold Steel's annual tournament/seminar. 



Date: 03/3/01 11:34:12 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: Pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: what's a Dog Brother?

See http://www.dogbrothers.com for more info.

Yeah, Scott just about sums it up. They started as a midnight group in the Inosanto Academy. They are heavily influenced by Inosanto blend as well as Pekiti Tersia. Besides BJJ they also incorporate silat and krabi krabong (thailand) elements.

The tapes are an eye opener. The stick sparring I did was with padded sticks and hockey gear, although it did allow knees, elbows, kicks, punches, biting, grappling. The sticks they use are not the light weight rattan you order in AWMA catalogue either, or serrada length. They use 30-36" inch sticks.

I really don't think they go full contact week after week - those bruises and detached finger nails take awhile to heal. They used to do two "Gatherings" a year at Hermosa Beach, but they are discontinuing this year to focus on a training camp.

One of the interesting tapes is single and double stick vs a variety of weapons - bo, nunchaku, bokken, tonfa, bullwhip.

The thing I am liking about grappling is, unlike this type of sparring, you can go all out and not end up with a concussion, missing teeth, or broken body parts . I suppose they are a bit insane but I think they are in the same camp as the oldtime karate players who sparred without pads - that's pretty crazy as well.  



Date: 03/4/01 12:21:18 AM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Re: Re: what's a Dog Brother?

Okay, well thanks for telling me what a "Dog Brother" is. It obviously has nothing to do with Kung Fu "dog boxing" (a form of ground fighting).

At age 49 I've got my share of injuries and scars from the hard training and harder tourneys of the old days. I was KO'd more than once in those no-gear, "non-contact" (actually medium contact was allowed--if you were still conscious and standing you could still fight) tourneys of the early '70's. I'll just let the Dog Brothers float on by, if you don't mind.  



Date: 03/2/01 04:08:41 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: about the Dillman tapes

Dillman interests me. Tell me about the tapes.
I have Vunak's "JKD Streetfighting Series, Tapes 15 a & b, Law Enforcement Tactics." Would you be interested?
I also have Cold Steel's "Proof" video, but that's just a long sales presentation.  



Date: 03/2/01 04:36:15 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: about the Dillman tapes

Scott,

One tape shows several of his famous "knockouts" applied to attenders of a seminar. Photo quality is handheld video cam. It is not a dub, but the commercial video. He shows "bunkai" of traditional kata (Okinawan???), that I am not familiar with. He shows how the movements of kata can be pressure point strikes, setting up the knock outs.
The other tape are bo staff basics, two man drills, and a bo form. No "sport karate" type twirling. Just straight dos manos type strikes.

Want to trade for the PFS tapes?

The Vunak tapes I have are HKE, Knife, Straight Blast, Energy Drills, Dian Moscarda 3d JKD, Attributes III and IV (I think).

I wish I had gotten trapping and Dumog tapes instead of the Attibutes. Although one of the attribute tapes is a good review of guntings, destructions and straight blast in sparring.
The 3D tape is very good for teaching empty hand hubud, sombrada, and catch-jab drills. Inspiring for women MAist because there are gals from 11 yrs (estimate) and up who are demonstrating some nice JKD skills.

I haven't watched the Dillman tapes in awhile. They've only been viewed maybe 3-4 times. I'll post more if you'd like.

PS. When are your articles being published?

Sovann  



Date: 03/6/01 09:49:24 PM
Name: Philip A. Payne

Email: fiw@angelfire.com

Subject: Re: Selling instructional videos

Hey, about those Dillman tapes,
If you still have them, which ones are they. I used to be a part of DKI and have pretty much ever tape the guy ever sold, but I'm missing a few. If you've got what I want, I'LL PAY THE SHIPPING.
Yours in the warrior tradition,
His humble steward,
Philip A. Payne, benefactor.  



Date: 03/6/01 09:53:54 PM
Name: Philip A. Payne

Email: fiw@angelfire.com

Subject: Re: Re: about the Dillman tapes

Hey,
Just realized someone else had already expressed interest. I wasn't trying to be rude, Scott. Sorry.
Yours in the warrior tradition,
His humble steward,
Philip A. Payne, benefactor.  



Date: 03/4/01 06:27:47 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: Pens@juno.com

Subject: Prayer request

Hi,

Please pray for a former student of mine, Dana Shadburne. He left to serve in India yesterday as part of an international group of martial artists that will be headquartered in New Dehli. They will train together to do do evangelism throughout the country. He will be there at least a year, with the last few months working with Campus Crusade for Christ. Please pray that he will learn Hindi quickly and serve by the power of the Holy Spirit, and that many would come to know Christ through this team.

Thanks, Sovann 



Date: 03/4/01 09:44:03 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Prayer request

Will do, and I pray all goes well for him and the ministry.
I once learned a phrase in Hindi, but there are so many versions of it, this may not be a real one, and don't worry about the spelling, but the phonetic spelling instead:

Ya ova mar lo pay lay tay

"The Lord is my Shepard"

Vicki  



Date: 03/5/01 05:35:17 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Prayer request

Sweet! I'll try it when he establishes email over there.
Thanks for your prayers, Sovann 



Date: 03/13/01 09:32:31 AM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Dojo/Dojang Appearance

For those of you who have a school in a commercial building, or one you own, instead of a YMCA or such, where you are limited to what you do to your surrounding area to train, what does it look like.

By that, do you have any flags, pictures, paintings on the wall, etc.

My old school had purple walls, for that was the main color in our patch, representing royality, on the back wall. The front wall had mirrors with simple geographical images representing karate people, in red, yellow, and purple, for the wall above that was gray.
Our mirrors were I believe 4 feet tall, and were the entire length across.
When you walked into the school, the mirrors were to the left, and the purple wall to the right. As you walked in, straight ahead was a large image of our patch, centered, and that was the shorter side of the school.

What does you surrounding look like. Do you thinking having too much could limit your ability to focus, or do you think it gives it a strong background on your school's beliefs, or experience?

Vicki 



Date: 03/16/01 03:31:04 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Dojo/Dojang Appearance

Less is more.

Coloured walls should be avoided. Many studies
on moods reflect that white is best for learning.
Yellow is the worst, as are extreme contrasts, for
they agitate people; wood on light colors is calming.

My dojo has no windows, and this is ideal. Light walls,
dark floor, no mirrors (of course, if you are mostly a
kata style, then you will want mirrors.)

My last dojo had mirrors on two walls (all that is necessary),
and it had a stretching rail along one mirrored wall. It
was formerly a dance studio, and it had varnished wooden
floors (light stain)... it was perfect.

Hope it helps.

Marc  



Date: 03/21/01 07:16:45 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: Dojo/Dojang Appearance

Since our name reflects the state of Texas it was easy to decorate. Texas flag & outline of Texas (Red, White & Blue) with cross. Walls are blue on bottom half & white top half with small red trim at top. Mirrors on 2 walls. Bench for parent seating on 1 wall. Front has windows. Flooring is puzzle mats (Red & Blue) layed out for 2 rings.

Wall above bench is where we put students rank certificates from each test. My wife makes these certificates after each test with pictures from digital camera. Students get rank certificates to take home after next test.

David 



Date: 03/13/01 04:03:47 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: unified theory

Some time ago I asked the question whether all fights could become grappling contests. (The question has since been cut off the bottom of the screen.) Everyone who responded said yes. Outside this Forum I have angered some martial artists, all of them kickers, by asserting the preeminence of close-range fighting skills over long-range fighting skills. I don't know how it started, because these other people ALSO said every fight can become a stand-up grappling match. I see a logical falacy.

Now, let me cut you off at the pass. I am not saying taekwondo or tang soo do or any other foot style is necessarily bad. Let's not accuse me of denigrating any style. Let's keep this discussion academic and factual, not emotional or personal. I too have been injured by kicks. I respect kicks and long punches as viable weapons. I'm looking beyond that, to something else. I'm looking for a unified strategy of combat that applies to all conceivable ranges: really long external weapons, really short external weapons, long kicks, short kicks, long punches, short punches, grabbing, throwing, wrestling on the floor, elbows and knees and headbutts, and everything else. I'm searching for the underlying truth with a capital T that applies all the time, not just some of the time. At the moment my truth is "eliminate all gaps for attack, but make gaps for defense."

My questions are two:

1) If your first two, or even three, strikes don't fell me, and if I want to grapple with you (note the two "ifs"), will I always be able to grapple with you? Why or why not? Explain.
Grappling, for those unfamiliar, does not necessarily mean rolling on the floor. It also means all the joint locking and limb trapping and sweeping that occurs while you are still standing. If I'm close enough to grab your arm, I'm also close enough to punch you. Grappling means I'm close enough to simultaneously strike you somehow and hold onto you.

2) When faced with multiple opponents, say five, how can you defeat them? What's your winning strategy (besides supernatural intervention)? In particular, I want to know if you suggest kicking and punching them from afar, as in taekwondo, or if you suggest a grappling approach as in aikido and silat. Explain your answer. 



Date: 03/15/01 07:43:58 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: unified theory

Hi Scott,

I'll take a "stab" (hee hee) at it. You know some of my interests/styles/biases so some of what I will say will be to play devil's advocate...

1) First of all, "will I always be able to grapple". Of course not. Could you grapple? Depends. You can't always grapple if I haven't hit you at all much less a few strikes. Maybe you didn't go down, but have I sustained any damage? Can you see? After the third strike did I shuffle out to maintain distance? If you are not down, are you staggering backward, or off-balance/on your heels? If I didn't completely miss each strike, are you covering up at all reflexively? Is the question will you always be in grappling range?

You get my point - qualify the scenario a little more. Did I just hit you with a double jab-right cross? Or did I stay at kicking range?

2) Five attackers - I hope you have a knife at the least. Movement, line them up, don't spend too much time engaged with one attacker. Get to the outside. Run. Don't go down if you at all help it. Use stand up grappling (greco, aikido, jj, dumog, aiki, daito tryu, whatever) to use opponent as a shield.
I would use low-line kicking only as natural stepping so as not to risking losing balance or getting taken down.
Use the appropriate techs at the appropriate range and time. So, yes, to both - punching and kicking at the right range, and grappling at grappling range. Open hand striking followed up with tearing, pulling, pushing of clothing or face and body parts. Whatever it takes. If you don't have enough punching power to make space to break away or maintain range you are in a world of hurt against five people. If you go down, it is very likely you will be seriously stomped. (See: death of 20 yr old in Seattle riots last Mardi Gras). If you go down keep fighting to get away. Break knees and ankles with kicks. Grapple to get out from bottom. 



Date: 03/15/01 10:40:24 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: clarification of "grapple"

In the first question, regarding grappling, I am asking if I would be able to grab hold of your body or clothing. I don't care what your attack was. I don't care what my attack was. It doesn't matter if we fall to the ground and wrestle, or if we remain standing. It doesn't matter if I proceed to throw you or sweep you or punch you or kick you. All I'm wondering is, could I grab you or your clothing, if I want to, within the first 3 strikes? Or even within the first 2 strikes?

When I previously asked this question a few months back, everyone who responded said "yes." But it's since fallen off the bottom of the screen, and I need this answer for analysis of the answers to question 2. 



Date: 03/16/01 03:58:47 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: unified theory

First of all, let me remind you that I denied that all fights become grappling contests.

Now, let me answer your two questions in reverse order:

1. Multiple Attackers
I completely agree with Sovann on this one. I will just clarify by saying that I advocate a "reverse tactic" with multiple attackers. For example, while usually you will move from striking to grappling, with many attackers you should move from grappling to striking. Reason: striking gives your opponents something to grab at. It stretches you out, and while that isn't bad against one opponent (within reason, b/c you are stretched perpendicular to his base), with multi attackers, you can't help but be grabbed. Plus, remember the strategy of multiple attackers: some hold, some strike. Your first goal is not to be held.

Let me also say that usually multiple attackers are a blessing in disguise. Unless they are militaristically unified in purpose and strategy, they are just going to get in each others' way. This is where the body-shifting and evasion will be your best bet to set them up and tangle them.

2. Now, can you grapple me?
Maybe. Me personally? Not to be pompous, but I doubt it. How do I keep you from grappling me? Well, I hit you. While I'm a big advocate of grappling against uneducated or drunk opponents, I have found that it is very difficult to "grab" someone who knows how to fight and/or has trained reflexes to counter-grapple your grabs or strike your grabbing hands/arms, etc.

In chinese styles, grabs are handled very simply. If you grab my right wrist, guess what my left hand is doing? Grab both of them? Good luck first of all, and secondly... I'll get my smelling salts. Kicks? Those are a sure way to get out of a grab.

In reality (which is where we live, most of us) it is almost impossible to grapple efficiently with someone who is an educated striking martial artist (by educated, I mean truly, not just ranked).

Now, is it possible? Sure. Probable? Not as probable as just punching me in the gut. My unified theory is this: start with striking (I include joint/bone destruction here), move to grappling (briefly), go to the floor, pin.
 

PS
It is useless to have a unified theory if you don't first have the parts. We have already pretty well identified the parts: striking art, joint manipulation, throwing and take-downs, ground-fighting. Now, if these are the four parts, you will do best not to take them all from one instructor, but to move through them. I've been practising a striking art for 8.5 years (which included joint manipulation)... Now I'm taking Aiki and Jujitsu from the beginning for my throwing and ground-work. The results have been stunning. Rome wasn't built in a day, though. It takes TIME. I guess I said all that to say this: A unified theory is just that - a THEORY. Having it won't help any more than having a syllabus helps in a class. It tells you what you're going to learn and when, but it doesn't teach you anything you need to pass the class.  



Date: 03/16/01 06:06:15 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: no, I think you do agree with me

I did not posit that the grappling would be successful. I only posited that after 2, or maybe 3, strikes that the two fighters would be at such a range that one of them COULD grab hold of the other. What happens next is beyond the scope of my question, and irrelevant at this point. If the first hit knocks one guy cold, then voila, I am proven right. An unconscious person can be grabbed. If the first hit dazes one guy so he's seeing stars and wobbling, then again I am proven right because he could be grabbed easily.

I think you agreed a few months back that they will end up at that range, and I think you are agreeing with me today. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I completely agree with you that a punch of some kind is following the grab, and that it will not be easy to take out a struggling opponent with "judo" or "chin-na" or "aikido" techniques alone, but that's beyond the scope of this question. What happens even one micro-second after a grab occurs is not relevant to my question.

Last time, I used the word "grabbing range" and people got confused. This time I used the word "grappling range" and people get confused. Eventually I'll find words that don't confuse.



Date: 03/16/01 04:56:00 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: unified theory

About your unified theory question. Sorry, but I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent because of a pet peeve of mine. In your message you mentioned that you're looking for the "underlying truth in combat." And that at the moment you had a particular truth.
I wish that when martial artists discussed theories they would refrain from using the word "truth." Truth, by definition is exclusive and objective. It's not relative and isn't open to interpretation. It stands alone and apart from anything you or I may feel or think. I have often heard secular martial artists say "That's fine, but your truth is not my truth." I believe that what people mean when they use a word like truth is actually likes, dislikes, tendencies and/or preferences. I think if we call ourselves Christian we need to be clear about the truth. Remember WHO is the truth. Otherwise we become like non-Christians, muddying up the spiritual waters with a smorgasbord of beliefs. It was G. K. Chesterton that said: There are many angles at which we may fall, but only one angle at which we may stand straight.

Thanks and God bless, Chris.  



Date: 03/16/01 06:15:52 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: fair comment

A fair comment. No argument here. I am looking for something objective, and someday I'll find it. The human body has not changed since God made Adam. We ain't evolving.

Ever written your own world view? I have. Truth is not relative. As for likes and dislikes, yes, it pervades the martial arts community. My question is meant to rise above that. I'm consciously making an effort to stay away from "my art is better than your art" for two reasons. One, I'll never find the truth going down that road. And two, there is too much overlap between all the different arts. Taekwondo looks like karate looks like kempo looks like ju-jitsu looks like aikido looks like chin-na, and on and on it goes.  



Date: 03/16/01 08:37:48 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: "Grappling" with your question.

I'm trying reeeeeeally hard to figure out what it is you're after with your question. Here's my best shot at it. Can you ALWAYS grab someone within the first three strikes if you're determined? The answer is, a big fat "depends." How fast are you? How "slick" are you? You seem pretty smart. You must know there are no guarantees in life, martial arts, or just about anything else. I think the variables have less to do with the art and more to do with the individuals characteristics and make-up. Yes some arts are somewhat better than others in their approach to reality, but many people make all kinds of arts work for them. Remember, even JKD was just Bruce's personal expression. Dan I. has said many times a lot of the things that Bruce showed them he simply couldn't use because he didn't have Bruce's attributes. Nothing works all the time, for everyone. All you can do is be the best YOU can be. That's one of the great things about the MA. The fact that it's a lifelong persuit. But you must know yourself and be true and honest in your self-assessment.
Now, having said all that I'm going to (seemingly) contradict myself. I think there are many great arts out there, but one you may want to investigate if you haven't already and that seems to fit the criteria you laid out earlier is Bando. This is a truly no-nonsense system that is very broad in it's scope but very simple in it's application. I've heard Dr. Gyi, Bando's GM, say how amused he is when he hears people talk about fighting 5 or 6 people at once when he has enough trouble with ONE. I tend to agree.
Hope I haven't offended. I didn't mean to. Take care and God bless. Chris  



Date: 03/18/01 09:05:59 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: "Grappling" with your question.

> I'm trying reeeeeeally hard to figure out
> what it is you're after with your question.
>
Chris asked where Iím going with my question. To answer that, I need to give you a visual aid. Have a training partner strike a pose and freeze in place, like a statue. Very slowly punch your fist out towards his nose, and gently stop when you make contact. Do not retract. Hold your fist there as you look around your hand. Look at how close his hair is. Look at how close his shirt collar is. If his hands are up, look at how close they are. Look around. My point is this: If you had changed your trajectory just a little bit, your hand would have landed on these ďhandlesĒ - hair, shirt, wrist, and so on.
Why didnít you? Okay, you probably aimed for the nose because punching is a great way to end a fight. Fine.

But why couldnít you grab if you wanted to? A grab is skin-on-skin or skin-on-clothes clutching. A punch is skin-on-skin or skin-on-clothes touching.

Thatís my question.  



Date: 03/19/01 12:00:19 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: One more try...

Easy to say Grasshopper, but not so easy to do! The reason is this. Have you ever played baseball. If you have you know how hard it is to put bat on ball when it's going 90 MPH. Or even just catching up to and holding onto a screaming line drive. It CAN be done, but not by many. Demonstrating it in slo-mo is LOTS easier. Your example starts from a false premise. I realise you're just trying to create a mental picture but going in super slow motion is NOT the same as real time. It's part of the age-old problem of much of the MA. The feeder will often deliver at half speed while the defender defends at close to real time, giving a false picture of what should happen. Punching the nose vs. grabbing a "handle" per your example is akin to executing fine-motor skills vs. gross-motor. Gross motor skills are always easier to employ in real time, adrenalin-dumped situations. Just because your hands are in the right spot for a grab doesn't mean it can or will happen when you've got a fully resisting, twisting, writhing individual that's fighting back like an animal. Now, that being said we should all remember how the Gracies showed us all that grappling definitely can happen if forced. I believe they were so successful at doing so because they found a way to apply their skills in a way that required less precision in the way we think of stand-up precision, but rather a total body feel, this again being a gross-motor type skill and more practical to execute in stress-filled situations. Hoo-boy! Do I sound like I'm on both sides of the fence? God bless  Chris  



Date: 03/19/01 09:39:03 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: One more try...

Sorry, but I just thought of something that I had to add to my previous post. When I think about it I can't say I ever remember the Gracies or any NHB fighter grabbing anything with just the hands before clinching. I make this distinction because I think clinching is general enough and just plain easier. After the clinch comes the takedown and THEN the grabs can occur once the opponent is controlled, but in my experience not before. Maybe someone else has other experiences. Just me blabbing  Chris 



Date: 03/19/01 02:38:18 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: unified theory

Hi Scott,

You've clarified your question to me and you know I agree but I want to include a few more scenarios to see if your unified theory will address them.

Since you are seeking a unified theory you should include knife. And since I can defang you at a range where my knife can cut your hand but your hand can't grab me...

I agree with the empty-hand grabbing range you speak of for punching. But what if my third strike is an oblique kick? You are not in range to grab my torso or arms and I doubt you will reach down and grab my foot after an oblique kick. Also, what about my example of jab-cross-kick, which sends the recepient of the kick a step or two back? The combatants will not be in grappling range then. If you take a snap shot of the skin to skin, skin to clothes at the moment of impact then yes you are correct. But if the recepient is trying to counter with a grab I don't think it is probable they will be in range.

I think the arguements you get from kicking oriented arts is because your question brings up the need for grappling (standing and/or groundfighting) in a realistic, well-rounded self-defense system. Even the possibility of a grappling situation occuring points out an area that is neglected or not addressed. Some admit that they are training for sport but for those that state that their art will deal with a street attack...
Grappling arts will say that 95% of fights will end on the ground. Standup arts (in the extreme) will state I will knockout you out/eye gouge/etc. before you take me down or grapple me.

Also, for your close quarters work do you advocate joint locks, headbutts, knees and elbows, sweeps, throws, takedowns,clawing, gouging, all of the above??

Thanks for the idea, this is the longest thread I've seen on the INCMA board in a long time.
Sovann  



Date: 03/20/01 11:27:41 AM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: need more input - summary so far

Lots of posts here. Gets confusing. I think this is a summary.

I asked a question that was not meant to be an endorsement just yet. It's a question. I have an opinion, sure, which will come out eventually, but at this point in time I'm gathering feedback and starting conversations which hopefully will enlighten everyone, including me, and make us all think about what we're doing.

So far, Sovann agrees that the two fighters will get in range for a grab, but he points out that when a grab occurs the grabbed player might very well break away with an immediate strike of his own. His example was a low kick.

So far, Chris says that yes the two fighters will get in range for a grab of some kind to occur, but that doesn't mean that either of them will have the skill to actually do it. He also says that clinching first, rather than immediately grabbing with the hands, increases the grappler's odds of success. He offered the Gracies as an example.

Marc Paine said you have to soften up the opponent with strikes before you have a chance at grabbing him. After that it will be possible for one person to grab the other, but grappling might not lead to victory. Marc did not make clear whether he thinks 3 strikes is enough to put the fighters in grabbing RANGE.

This is good! I hope more people will offer their input.  



Date: 03/16/01 04:06:47 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Martial Arts and Spirituality

Many people speak of martial arts as a discipline which improves or enriches their spiritual lives. If you believe that martial arts does this for you, please let me know the way in thich it does. In what way(s) is Martial Arts a spiritual discipline for you? 



Date: 03/17/01 12:26:59 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Martial Arts and Spirituality

Hello.
Yes, for me martial arts helped me with my Christian Spirtuality.
Our school was a Christian school, and with the Christian atmosphere. At the time of joining, my faith was at the lowest part of my life, shortly after moving across the state to my current location, and losing a lot of things from back home. Other things too, but when I joined, and got feedback from classmates, and the instructor, I wanted to know why they were so happy. They told me of Jesus, and I was like, yes, I remember, but He felt so far away at the time. I was saved 10 years before joining the martial arts at this school, but needed to be reminded in a place I could feel it, and I didn't at any church I went to in the area.

So martial arts, as long as they practice or help you practice a spirtuality or even have many that are deep in to spirtuality it can help. Mine just happened to be a Christian one, which I am glad for, because it brought my faith back to the level it should have been.

Just be careful with any spirtual aspects that may hinder you from the Christian beliefs. I don't mean that all other beliefs are wrong, but if they feel in any way to go against your beliefs, you have to question if that spirtuality is worth having.  



Date: 03/20/01 01:35:47 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Martial Arts and Spirituality

First, I need to state a personal view. I believe that humans have 3 parts: body, soul, and spirit. The body part is obvious. Our minds, wills, and emotions are part of the soul. Thatís where individual personality comes from. Animals have souls too. The soul is eternal. Animals do not have spirits. The spirit is the part of us that communicates with and connects us to God. With rare exceptions such as when Samuel and Moses heard an audible voice from God, we do not communicate with God through our physical senses (the body), and we do not communicate with God through our intellect (the soul). We communicate with God through our spirits. The conscience is in the spirit. Our spirits are eternal.

Now back to the question. For a long time I could not connect martial arts to the Christian religion, but now I can and do. My awakening came from aikido, so thatís what I will write about here. I could make similar correlations between Christianity and other martial arts, but for simplicity I will only talk about aikido.

Aikido techniques do not work for me unless 1) I move from my ďcenterĒ where ki is stored; 2) I extend my ki; and 3) I move with proper footwork. And Iím not alone. The same holds for every practitioner of aikido. Ki is a spiritual energy, as I have elsewhere opined. Thus, I could say that aikido does not work unless I extend and expend spiritual energy through my body. In other words, aikido does not work unless my physical body moves in harmony with a spiritual force. That sounds biblical, aye? Sounds a bit like, ďNot by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord.Ē

What I found in aikido practice is that success = spirit + mind + body, in that order, working in harmony. The body can not come first. No, quite the opposite, the body has to come last! The ki (spirit) must come first! The lesson is that nothing works in the dojo unless my physical body obeys the spiritual power. OíSensei had erroneous views as to the nature of the ultimate spiritual power. But, considering the merciful nature of aikido, and considering who made all things, it is very easy to see the true God of heaven and earth in aikido.

The spirit connects to the body through the soul (mind, will, and emotions). In the context of aikido, the brain, as in the mind, is the most important part of the soul, because the brain tells the body how to move. As I said above, the only way my aikido techniques worked was if my body moved according to ki energy. Hence, my brain had to be listening to my ki energy -- which is to say, my brain had to be listening to my spirit. Ahah!

In summary: God the Holy Spirit talks to our human spirits. Our human spirits talk to our brains (part of the soul). The brain moves the body. The body performs the martial art techniques, and the technique works. Viola. If you remove or corrupt a link, then the techniques wonít work. Success and failure are directly determined by the degree to which the student maintains the connections between God, spirit, soul, and body.

In time I began to see a lesson for my everyday life. That lesson is that I wonít find true happiness and success in my life if Iím not doing Godís will. As a practical matter, the only way I will know Godís will for me is if my spirit is regularly and consistently listening and talking to Godís Spirit. And the only way I can execute that revealed plan for me is if my soul, in turn, directs my body. Hence, just like in the dojo, the chain goes like this: Godís Spirit talks to my spirit which in turn directs and affects my mind, will, and emotions, which in turn command the actions of my body.

To rephrase and summarize:
The Bible says there is peace in life when you are in harmony with the Spirit of God. The only way to do that is to for your body, soul, and spirit, all three, to harmonize with Godís Holy Spirit. Similarly, in the dojo, violence is subdued and peace restored when you perform aikido techniques correctly. The only way to do that is by getting your body, soul, and spirit in harmony with one another.

I hope you see a resemblance.
That is how martial arts enrich my spiritual life.

This aikido analogy made even better sense to me when I read Proverbs 20:27, ďThe spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Ē KJV. There is not enough in this lone verse for me to be dogmatic. It might not even be a good translation of the original script. But, I like to think that it gives credibility to the Eastern teaching that spiritual ki energy is formed in and resides in the belly. But it doesnít matter. No one said the Bible is an anatomy text.

The more I read the Bible, the more I find verses such as Eph 4:2, Prov 16:32, Prov 14:29, James 1:19, 1 Thes 5:15 ... I could go on and on. These verses, and so many more, speak of being humble, gentle, peaceful, slow to anger. That is the message, the goal, and the purpose of aikido. These Bible verses reinforce the parallelism of following my spirit in class, for performance of the techniques, and following Godís Spirit out of class, for performance in everyday life.  



Date: 03/22/01 06:48:10 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: Re: Martial Arts and Spirituality

Scott,
I just got through reading an article in Black Belt magazine about Steven Segal. He is in Aikido. He trained in Japan. He is now buddist. Suposedly they believe he is reincarnated from some 17th century monk. He talks about the O'Sensi and spirituality. It talks of how the O'Sensi used his power to toss attackers without even laying a hand on them. Have you seen this article? If so what is your take on it? If not you might want to get a hold of it & check it out?

David  



Date: 03/22/01 10:07:30 AM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Steven Seagal article

Thanks. Yes, I read it. (I have a subscription to BB and IKF magazines.)

I've read other, similar, reports and recollections of O'Sensei's martial prowess in various books and magazines. Morihei Ueshiba, O'Sensei, died in 1969. Because he lived so recently, and because currently-living people also do remarkable things, I believe the stories about him. I don't think we could have so many amazing tales about someone so this soon after his life, while his contemporaries are still alive and reading these same reports, if the stories weren't true.

I do question whether Seagal personally knew O'Sensei. Segal is younger than my parents. That would mean he moved to Japan and started training around age 20. I simply don't know when he moved to Japan. But I was pleased to read that he's a Blues muscician!

My view on the throwing-people-without-touching-them is that O'Sensei was probably combining two things. One, he was tapping into "ki" energy without touching the attacker. George Dillman says he can do this, and people in INCMA have vouched for Dillman's credibility. Two, he was blending with the attacker's momentum, which is what aikido is all about. Think of wing chun's chi sao drill enlarged to cover the entire body. 



Date: 03/17/01 09:49:18 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: curious of members

Hi,
Just wonder what do all of you do, in your life, besides being a Christian involved with the martial arts?

I'm a 22 year old female who is attending a community college, in computers, and will graduate this May, and am thinking what else to do after that. I enjoy writing poetry, working on websites, and plan to teach one day a Christian martial arts school.

Tell me about you, if you desire,
Vicki



Date: 03/18/01 05:10:17 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: curious of members

I'm almost 30. Married with a daughter, age 4. Used to be a computer programmer, used to be a mathematician. Now I'm a law student. Been living in California five years. I recently got hooked on Blues music. Gonna relearn how to play the guitar.
Someday I'll make a living doing martial arts. MA, music, and writing are the only things I really like doing.  



Date: 03/18/01 06:13:28 PM
Name: Vicki

Email:

Subject: Re: Re: curious of members

Just an idea,
When you get the music going, with the writing, along with the martial arts, and law school going, you'll be able to do the combination of it all:

Making your own songs and music and making musical katas to go to your school, and if anyone has a problem with it, and tries to sue you, you can use your law skills.

Not, trying to make fun of what you do or are interested in, just see the few combine very well.

What kind of things do you like to write? I write poetry, and have had 4 copyrighted on www.poetry.com

Vicki  



Date: 03/18/01 11:49:47 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re:

I like to write philosophy, as in why I believe such-and-such, and why X necessarily implies Y. I'm sure that I'm the only living person you know who has written out his own complete world view. I'm also trying to write more descriptions of martial arts techniques (witness my articles for the magazines, and long-ago posts for Sovann). Philosophy is easy, but describing physical motions without the aid of pictures is not easy.

I'm moving in the direction of poetry. Someday I'm going to write some really fine poems as the words to songs that I'm going to write, someday.  



Date: 03/19/01 02:10:23 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Scott,

I enjoy your technical posts. I would also like to ask some of your thoughts on the law and self-defense issues, self-defense with knife also.  



Date: 03/19/01 11:34:37 PM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: Re: curious of members

I am 34 years old and a Pennsylvania State Trooper (11 years now) and have a wife (6 years) and 2 kids (Kayleigh-4, Alex-1). I teach Tae Kwon Do as a non-profit school in Saegertown, PA. I have been involved with TKD for 19 years (off and on) and am presently working out the "bugs" in trying to convert to a Christian based school of TKD. I have had my school for a little over a year and only 1 student is not a Christian. Which should make the transition all the easier.
I enjoy Christian contemporary and Gospel music( Rich Mullins, 3rd Day, and the Gaither Vocal group). 



Date: 03/21/01 08:26:18 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: Re: curious of members

Ron,

What style of TKD to you practice (ITF, WTF or other)?

I teach ITF style. I to have converted school over to Christian based. Maybe we can share ideas.

I tried to email you but it got returned, un-deliverable.

David  



Date: 03/24/01 04:48:04 AM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: curious of members

David,

The nearest would be ITF. But it is not officially associated with the ITF.  



Date: 03/19/01 02:20:09 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: curious of members

Vicki,

I am 30 yrs, I work in a sleep lab helping folks with sleep disorders, primarily sleep apnea. I just finished seminary with a Master in Pastoral Studies and want to go back for a Masters in Counseling. I grew up a PK and MK.

I have a a 4 yr old daughter who doesn't like karate - she wants to be a ballerina . And a 1 yr old boy.

I enjoy reading. Max Lucado and Philip Yancey are favorites, as is Tom Clancy.

I enjoy other sports, especially basketball (Laker fan in Blazer country) and volleyball.

The area of ministry/counseling I would like to go into is marriage and family counseling.  



Date: 03/21/01 07:53:17 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: curious of members

40 yrs old. 1 wife of 19+ yrs. 4 kids (17 yr boy, 15 yr girl, 12 yr boy & 9 yr girl). Retired airline pilot. Presently in family business with father. Steel fabrication of pressure vessels for the oil & chemical refineries. After earning my black belt a year ago I inherited the TKD school from my instructor. I have a young man that instructs full time for me. I along with my oldest daughter also instruct. The whole family is involved. We have researched all matters of TKD and removed any eastern religious beliefs. We have included biblical belt color meanings as part of the curriculum. When we do demos we use contemporary christian music. Have finally finished designing a patch that includes the cross and bible verse. We advertise as being christian based and freely discuss our beliefs when asked. We have T-Shirts that include "Kicking for Christ". When we wear these at tournaments I have gotten many very positive comments. After I test for my 2nd degree in May I plan on creating a musical form based on a contempory christian song.

Since we are using the school as a ministry to help people and not to make money we have kept the cost as low as possible for the students. About a month ago the customer base was dwindling a little and we needed a few more students to keep paying the bills. I used to worry about things like that. But this time I just mentioned it to the Lord that this was his school and that if he wanted it to prosper we could use a few more students. Well He said OK and in the past 2 weeks we have received 7 new students. Several happen to be from some chapel services that we performed at local schools in the last couple months.

I hope to retire from the fabrication industry in a year or so and devote my attention to fulltime TKD & parttime flying.

David  



Date: 03/24/01 04:50:34 AM
Name: Ron Vetovich

Email: sejongwarior4christ@pray247.com

Subject: Re: Re: curious of members

Praise the LORD!  



Date: 03/21/01 04:45:47 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: curious of members

HI , I'"m 44. (Yikes! ) I'm married 16 years. I'm a commercial illustrator. My main interest besides MA is Christian apologetics. I also enjoy doing stuff with my 2 boys like sports and camping or going out on a date with my wife from time to time. I enjoy all the MA but my home is basically the JKD family. I belong to Larry Hartsell's organisation and just recently tested for my first (beginner) level, even though I've been involved in the arts for over 20 years. I've resolved in my own mind that I will always have the mindset of a student when it comes to the MA but in matters of faith I believe there is but one way to the father and that is Jesu Cristo (my first love). Otherwise , I try not to take myself too seriously, even though I'll ramble on about MA to just about anyone who'll listen. Take care and God bless  Chris  



Date: 03/19/01 02:41:22 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Scott - ongoing job hunt

" Job hunt has been unsuccessful. I'm a little depressed about it. I like to think it's a blessing, though. The blessing is that I'll get to spend more time with my little daughter (at the beach no less), and more time doing arnis. "

Hang in there bro. Good to see you can see some positive in the situation. Don't know if your daughter will remember the time your spending now bt she will learn a lot about trusting in God as she sees her daddy going through this.

Praying for you, Sovann 



Date: 03/21/01 08:04:06 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: got a summer job, hoping for a fall job

Interviewed at 11 am today with the Huntington Beach City Attorney's office. At 4:30 I got a call saying that they want me to work for them this summer. Sweet! Same day service. I like that.
I wanted to work 20-24 hours a week so that I can calmly take one summer class, and go to the beach every week, and take an extra MA class, and date my wife. The job offer is for me to work 25 hours a week starting June 25, and ending the Friday before the semester resumes. Summer school starts June 4. This means I have to take a 3 week full vacation in May, and a 3 week psuedo-vacation in June, all in exchange for a couple hours more of office work per week in July and August. Sweet! I'll make that trade! You betcha! Beach, here I come.

Now I need a fall job, and a second car so that I can drive to work. Patience and a calm spirit, that's my middle name.  



Date: 03/23/01 06:24:53 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: got a summer job, hoping for a fall job

Hey,
Congrats and PTL on the job! Ahhhh, Hunnington Beach - I spent the summer there after graduation playing volleyball and basketball. I miss living in a place where you can actually swim in the ocean. Here in OR it's just too cold year round.

Hope you like the new job, Sovann