INCMA Forum Posts Archive 6:
 
Date: 11/4/00 01:11:17 AM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Fighting Stances

Article:
Do you want to dance, or fight? Answer that question,
and you'll know how to stand.
If you want to fight, then stand like Muhammid Ali or
Sugar Ray Leonard or some other great boxer. Mobility is
the first goal. If you can't move in every direction instantly,
then you are standing wrong. Your feet should be comfortably
wide, and your knees should be slightly bent. Don't be flat
footed, but don't walk on your toes either. Your hands
should be up, protecting the vital targets: face, neck,
sternum. If your hands are ever, ever, EVER protecting your
hip bone at any time during a fight, then you are standing
wrong. The hip bone is not a target. Punches are thrown from
shoulder, not from the hips. Don't stand sidewise, because
you'll have no front-to-back mobility. Don't stand straight
on to the opponent, because you'll have no side-to-side
mobility. Find a compromise position, something like 45
degrees. You'll still be able to lauch kicks from a fighting
position. Bruce Lee had a good fighting position. Go read
his books.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to Original Article:

How do you position yourself in a fighting stance, feet and hands position?
My old school, fighting stances were narrrow, no wider than your sholder width, one foot foward, one foot bac, knot of the belt to the side, and the back foot on it's ball.
Hand are held up, usually the back hand up to the chin, and the front hand a little higher.
My new school feet are almost like in our old back stance, in a L shape sortof, sholder width apart, feet are flat on the floor, and hand are held up high. The body is turned to the side somewhat, and the back hadn is up, almost like it's grabbing the ear, and the front hand, is almost like it's punching straight up infront of the face. Elbows are close to touching.

How do you guys do it?

Vicki 



Date: 11/7/00 04:02:27 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fighting Stances

I believe that you are wrong on several counts:

>If you want to fight, then stand like Muhammid Ali or
>Sugar Ray Leonard or some other great boxer.

While your school may be very much like boxing, it is important to remember that boxing teaches a very specific way of generating power, commonly known as inclination, and also requires of its fighters a superior physique which a common self-defense oriented martial artist may not have.

>Mobility is the first goal. If you can't move in every direction >instantly, then you are standing wrong.

I believe that this is an over-simplification, besides being wrong. Mobility is important, yes. However, having a low centre of gravity, good posture (which allows the waist and hips more mobility), and avoiding "floating qi" (common in "jumpy" fighters) are all important. For example, being able to move fast will do you less good than having a low and firm stance if you are fighting someone who trips or sweeps a good deal. I adopt stances often directly chosen by my opponent's body style, because your opponents' body styles will tell you a lot about the way they are likely to move and fight.

>Your feet should be comfortably
>wide, and your knees should be slightly bent. Don't be flat
>footed, but don't walk on your toes either.

I agree with you completely here. "Dead feet" are a horrible hindrance in a fight.

>Your hands should be up, protecting the vital targets: face, >neck, sternum. If your hands are ever, ever, EVER protecting >your hip bone at any time during a fight, then you are standing
>wrong. The hip bone is not a target. Punches are thrown from
>shoulder, not from the hips.

Punches thrown from the shoulder are fine if your style of power-generation is inclination. If it is twisting power you look for, then a punch from the waist is superior. Punches thrown from the shoulder are good for "tags" or if you are very strong in your shoulders and arms, but it is easier to generate power and speed without physical conditioning by punching from the waist. If you'd like to try a test... stand with your fist at shoulder height and have an opponent push against your fist as you try to reach them with it. Next, do the same thing but start your punch from your waist. You'll see the difference in drive power immediately.

>Don't stand sidewise, because
>you'll have no front-to-back mobility. Don't stand straight
>on to the opponent, because you'll have no side-to-side
>mobility. Find a compromise position, something like 45
>degrees. You'll still be able to lauch kicks from a fighting
>position.

I have to agree with you here, too. Sideways stances are very poor for speed of kicking, but excellent for high poised kicks. Unfortunately, in a real fight you're not looking for high poised kicks, but effective ones.

>Bruce Lee had a good fighting position. Go read
>his books.

I can't say I agree here. Bruce Lee's whole message to the martial arts community was: find your own way and do what's best for you. This is good, but you'll never do that by emulating Bruce Lee. He did what was best for Bruce Lee. You find out what works best for you.

I hope you don't think I'm just bashing your system of fighting *especially since I don't know what it is*, but only pointing out that you should be more open-minded about different styles. We have many different ways of reaching the same goal. 



Date: 11/10/00 05:53:03 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Fighting Stances

> While your school may be very much like boxing, it is
> important to remember that boxing teaches a very specific
> way of generating power, commonly known as inclination,
> and also requires of its fighters a superior physique which
> a common self-defense oriented martial artist may not have.
>
Completely true. But tight punches (open palm, eye jabs,
whatever strike you want to do) can be done with the
hands up, in front of the chest. You don't need to throw
from shoulder like Mike Tyson. The "one inch punch" of wing
chun kung fu is real, and just as effective as the boxer's
right cross. In some respects it is more effective than the
boxer's punch. The "one inch punch" cannot be thrown from
the hips.

It is a truism that you can't block a punch to the
face if your hands are not in front of your face.
Therefore, keep them up. The hip bone is not a target.
Your jaw and nose and eyes are targets. Protect the
targets.
 

> For example, being able to move fast will do you less
> good than having a low and firm stance if you are fighting
> someone who trips or sweeps a good deal.
>
Don't stand in front of him. Maybe your low center of gravity
traps you into being a target, because you can't move away.
If you stand on his foot and then "walk" up his leg, I promise
you he won't sweep you ever again.
As an example, every karateka from white belt to black belt
ends up standing shoulder to shoulder, chest to chest, with
every sparring partner in every sparring match. Instead of
stepping back to let him sweep you, try this: 1) grab his
elbow, 2) step on his foot, and 3) pin his elbow to his chest.
Since his other hand was reflexively on his hip bone it was
never a variable, and it is now completely out of the
equation. He is screwed. You have all but won the fight.
 
 

> I adopt stances often directly chosen by my opponent's body
> style, because your opponents' body styles will tell you a
> lot about the way they are likely to move and fight.
>
Completely true.
 

> ... but it is easier to generate power and speed without
> physical conditioning by punching from the waist.
>
I prefer close-in strikes, like wing chun's "one inch
punch," for the exact reason you said: Boxer's punches
require physical conditioning that most people don't have.
But it is physically, geometrically, biological true that
1) a punch thrown from the hip is slower than a punch
thrown from the shoulders or chest, and 2) everytime you
bring your hand to your hip, that hand is out of the fight,
and you have just opened yourself up to scores of counter
attack possibilities. Keep your hands up in the "window of
combat" protecting the real targets on your body. The hip
bone is not a target, and there is rarely a need to punch
from it. Knee-high ground fighting is about the only time
you'll need the extra force from a hip punch.
 
 

> Bruce Lee's whole message to the martial arts community
> was: find your own way and do what's best for you.
> ... You find out what works best for you.
>
Personally, I like cobra/python silat best. I'm also fond
of arnis and wing chun. All three take advantage of the
holes in karate/tkd, kenpo/kempo, boxing, and similar
kung fu systems. I'm not picking on these other systems.
There's way too much similarity between the arts all over
the planet for any honest martial artist to denegrate any
particular style. But certain styles have characteristic
weaknesses that other styles can defeat. Wing chun, for
example, has lots of weaknesses too, but they are different
than the weaknesses of karate.



Date: 11/5/00 06:21:44 PM
Name: David Roberts

Email: darkcystal_lake@hotmail.com

Subject: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

My church youth group resently found out, I am learning Tien Shan Pai. They disagree completely with martial arts... WITH NO BUTS..
I've tried talking to them, but they think its going to pull me away from God, cause its a religous system...
Yes, they do (very very rarely) teach that.
But I know what my beliefs are, and if there's something I'm not sure about that I learn at training, I'll ask a christian leader or look it up in the bible to know if its alright...but they're convinced that I'm doomed
Anybody got any ideas? 



Date: 11/5/00 06:43:31 PM
Name: Vicki (blackrat78)

Email: blackrat78@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
Hi there,I know how you feel!

Let me explain to you my beleifs of why I trained in the martial arts. I plan to get back into it soon too, when I graduate in May from this community college, and transfer to an university.

Christians have Christ living inside of you. We accepted Christ to be our Lord and savior, and invited Him to be in our lives. Because He is in our lives, we must defend Him daily. That can be spirtually, mentally, or physically. Spirtually, you have to know that He is the priority. Mentally, because you have to tell others that He is the way. You have to live everday as if you are a shining example. Physically is very rare, but is the third. I say this, because if someone is willing to take your life away, and you can defend yourself, then you have that right. You have that right to defend yourself, so that you can live, and then still spread the word of God. If we die, we no longer can do our main goal in life of being a Christian, and that is telling others of His love.

Also, remember this for your youth group. Martial Arts is not a religion. Yes, where it originated from, they beleived in other religions, but it never was forced. They mediated, but Christians can mediate / pray instead. If you walk into a Dojo/Dojang, bowing is not a religious practice. As you know, being in the martial arts, you know that, but have them research their customs. Their bow, is equivelent to a handshake. They all do it. Removing shoes was not of "holy" grounds either. It was because of the amount of dust and dirt they had, to keep insides clean.

Do what is in your heart. Feel free to email me if you wish. I lost a lot of friends when I joined in the martail arts, but I gained so many more. Martial arts, is a great place to gain self-respect, self-esteme, physical endurance, self-confidenence, and so much more. It was the change I needed in my life to get my spirtual faith back.

I am not sure if you know, but many other INCMA members know of my future plans of a Christian Martial Arts school. Have your youth group search for Christian martial arts schools and organizations, and they will be surprised to how many exist. The power of God can be used in anything. Now is the time for Martial Arts.

Even if you are not in a Christian martial arts enviroment, you are postive of your beliefs. You sound like you'll be sure to know what you feel comfortable to do, and such. Keep it up.

I can do all things through Christ who gives me the strength. (it doesn't say all but martial arts!)

Also: Put on the full armor of God so you can take a stand against the devil's schemes.

By the way, I am curious about your style of martial arts. Could you send me more information?

Vicki



Date: 11/5/00 07:08:32 PM
Name: Jeff McLaughlin

Email: incma@juno.com

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
Hi David! If you have not already done so, check out the article that we have on our site called "Martial Arts and Christian Beliefs - Are they Incompatible? by Bob Orlando. You can access it by going to: http://incma.tripod.com/MA-ChristianBeliefs.htm .

I am sure that there are some martial arts classes that stress a lot of the Eastern Philosophy that could be very incompatible with the teachings of Christianity. In my opinion, as well as the opinion of many others in this association, it is important to find a martial arts instructor that is a Christian and will not adhere to any of the Eastern Philosophies that may be harmful to them. Take the time to read our doctrinal statement and all of the articles that we have on our site. I would also direct your youth pastor to our website. Let me know if there is anything I can do. 



Date: 11/5/00 08:41:25 PM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
David, hang in there. My standard answer in such cases is to refer people to the Bible. For example, "Please show me in the Bible where God says the martial arts are wrong." You can answer with verses from the OT saying that God led warriors (Ps. 144:1, for example) or from the NT showing that Jesus believed in self defense, even violent self-defense (the cleansing of the temple, where he threw the thieves out of His Father's house). You can point out that the Apostle Paul referred to the martial arts in a positive way. (1 Cor. 9:26, 2 Tim. 4:7, etc.) A godly Christian walks according to the Word of God, and a godly martial artist should be no different.

I just finished reading through the entire Bible, marking with a green outliner every reference to the martial arts or self defense. This is a wonderful study, and will help you no end!

Other resourses can be found through the Gospel Martial Arts Union (GMAU). See the website at WWW.GMAU.ORG. For example, our director, Dr. Kent Haralson, has written a wonderful 109-page history of the martial arts ("The Martial Arts, a Christian Perspective, Philosophy, Program") proving that they did not orignate in Asia, but rather 1000's of years earlier in the Middle East.

As we say in Japan, "Ganbatte!"--do your best, hang in there! 



Date: 11/6/00 10:14:48 PM
Name: Mike "Major Dad" Reisman Maj(ret) R

Email: kenpomed@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
David:

Number one if you are a Born Agai believer you are not doomed. As a Christian Martial Artist myself, I do not get into some of the oriental "Zen" doctrines etc. I teach the self-defense techniques only of coures kata and kumite. There will always be folks who are diagnosed with myopia and tunnel vision too. I use my role as instructor to witness when appropriate to the lost. I attend a pretty fundamental Bible church and will occasionally run into some narrow minded folks. Of course that's what makes the world go round ) That is the reason my school is titled CCKK Christian Combat Kenpo Karate and we belong to this web site of Christian Martial Artists.

A fellow Christian Warrior

Mike "Major Dad" Reisman 



Date: 11/18/00 04:00:32 PM
Name: Allen Sapp

Email: Sappjudo@netzero.net

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
Dear Brother in Christ;
Can you handle one more letter? Most people who raise the argument that your friends have usually do so because they have not really researched and prayed about this. They take it out of context by grouping all martial arts in to one catagory. It is very convinent for them to do that because they don't have to think and pray about it. I have been doing martial arts for 39 years now. Several years ago, I had the same thing happen to me with one of my students who wanted to do martial arts(judo)with me but his pastor was against it listing the same reasons you have listed from your friends. It was good for me because it made me pray, study, and research for the answer. My opinion is worth nothing. Only the Lord's opinion counts. I will share with you what I feel led by the Lord. First of all, you can make a religion(idol)out of any activity. I know many people who make football, baseball, basketball, etc. their religion. They make that what they live for rather than using it as a tool to serve and honor the Lord. The next question that usually comes along about the eastern religion aspect is that most martial arts founders are non Christians therefore a person should not practice a martial art or sport in that situation. If that were the case then what about football, basketball, baseball, etc.? Are all of those people who invented those activities Christian? I am sure that with some research we would find that many of the activities that we have enjoyed all of our lives would find that many of them were not. But, because it has been a part of our culture for all of our lives, we never second guess that. The final question that usually comes up is about bowing. As a martial arts instructor for 35 years people ask how I could allow people to bow down to me in class? My reply is that first, they are not bowing down to worship me. They are doing that as a form of showing respect, just like you shake someone's hand, or open the door for someone, or(for us old guys)tip your hat to a lady, or saying yes sir or no sir to someone who is older than you or in a position of authority. Also, when someone bows to me, I in return bow to them. Someone who is being worshipped would not bow back. It is a mutual respect being shown to each other. I don't know if that helped any or not, but if you would like to write more, please feel free to write me at my e mail address. I pray that you will not allow someone who is being a stumbling block to you, to take away the opportunity for you to use the gifts and talents the Lord has blessed you with to honor and glorify His Great and Holy Name. Keep looking to Him and not to others. God bless you.

In His Service,

Brother Allen Sapp 



Date: 11/19/00 05:16:20 PM
Name: Mark McGee

Email: mmcgee@gmaf.org

Subject: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
It sounds like people in your youth group care about you. That's a good thing. God can speak to us through our Christian friends.

Martial arts is not regligious or something Christians should fear. What we should be aware of is the influence non-Christians can have on our beliefs and practice. If you're instructor is not a Christian, consider what he or she tells you to believe and do. That's true of any unsaved person who is in a position of teaching us what to believe and do. We should compare everything to Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. You will be fine if you do that.

You can show your friends at the youth group that they do not have to be concerned about your spiritual condition by continuing to grow straight and strong in Christ. If you do really begin to stray in some important area, they can be a help by pointing to specific areas of concern.

Martial arts is like many areas of interest in that Christians can use it for evangelistic purposes. Thousands of Christians are using martial arts to reach and teach boys and girls, men and women for Christ. Consider that potential as you study and grow in your art.

Our prayers are with you!

In Christ's Love and Grace,

Mark McGee
GMAF 



Date: 11/20/00 07:55:26 AM
Name: Joseph Lumpkin

Email: karate@otelco.net

Subject: Re: Re: My youth group thinks I'm backsliden by doing martial arts

Article:
I would say that fully half of the questions I get are based around the question of MA and Christianity. You know, Jesus had a great opportunity to speak out against this when he spoke to what a soldier should do. All he said was to be content with the wages recieved. If it weren't for warfare there would be no Christianity. This is because the Jews would not have survivied. They were a poeple of war. They trained in warfare from a young age with hand to hand, spear, sling, sword... They fought for land, They fought to defend the faith, They fought the eneies of God, They took the promised land by force. For your church to say they are against training in MA is to say that all police and soldiers are doomed since that training is, for all practical purpose, Jujitsu (combining strikes, throws, and locks). I train police in my area and I would be very remiss to send my friends out into such a hostile world without the propper training. Each week I see 40 to 50 kids in our free MA class. We teach Bible principles starting with Jonh 3:16 and Eph 2:8-9. We pray and we learn to fight. As we learn to fight we learn the discipline to restrain from fighting until it is time. Each week I get a list of men who has failed to appear in court and go out to hunt them. Each week I put my life on the line. Each week my friends in the adult class strain to keep society safe by fighting the good fight out on the streets. These police are Deacons and servents in thier chuches. We do this so that our communities can be safe and people like those in your youth group will not HAVE to think about using force to withstand the anarchy and needless killing that would take over our society. It is very short sighted and missinformed to say with such a blanket statement that MA and Christianity should not mix. Tell it to the war heroes, police, and people of God who are fighting for thier lives.

Joseph Lumpkin
President of Karate for Christ



Date: 11/15/00 09:12:04 PM
Name: Rich Dixon

Email: MSTCoastie@juno.com

Subject: Chung Do Kwan Patch

Does anyone know where I can get the original Chung Do Kwan patch? I don't want any association patches, just the original Chung Do Kwan patch for the TDK Style. 



Date: 11/15/00 09:57:43 PM
Name: Vicki (blackrat78)

Email: blackrat78@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Chung Do Kwan Patch

Article:
I am not sure exactly which version, for I have heard of Amercian Chung Do Kwan, and Traditional Chung Do Kwan.
On the Traditional Chung Do Kwan, it looks very simular to the Korean flag, having the red on the top, and the bottom looking like the ocean in a wave, kinda if you put it sideways and add black and white, you'll get the Yin Yang.
If this is what you are looking for, the website is: http://www.traditionaltkd.com/
I know it's an association, but maybe if all else fails, you can edit parts of it, if this is it. 



Date: 01/3/01 04:59:29 PM
Name: USJMKA

Email: USJMKA@juno.com

Subject: Re: Chung Do Kwan Patch
 
BEST MARTIAL ART SUPPLY carries the original Chung Do Kwan patch. 



Date: 11/13/00 06:47:21 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Knife Fighting

Scott asked a question about knife-fighting. I thought I would answer it as a new topic since I would like other people to share their experience as well.

Scott asked whether or not my school practiced knife-fighting, saying that it greatly improved the empty-hand abilities of students as well as preparing students for this very dangerous eventuality.

I must answer both yes and no. We practice largo mano escrima as a precurser to our long-fist techniques, since the escrima will prepare students for both knife and stick fighting, as well as improving their empty-hand techniques. We demonstrate techniques with knife-fighting applications, but we typically don't concentrate just on knife-fighting. In my school, we try to use the principle: "Only train with weapons you might find on the street." This naturally excludes: nunchakus, sais, swords, etc. Instead, we practice fighting with three different lengths of sticks: 28", 42", 60" - 72".

The only exception to this rule is myself, as I practice the Chinese Broadsword and Taiji Jian.

Of course, I realize that you may find yourself in a situation in which you are unarmed and your opponent has a knife or stick. Our "FIRST TECHNIQUE" is: pivot on your hips and run. Our "SECOND TECHNIQUE" is: find an equalizer. Equalizers may be chairs, sticks, terrain that you can interpose between you, or your shoes. Ultimately, however, we all must admit that martial arts will only carry you so far.

I will, in closing, warn against curriculums which assume the complete and utter stupidity of the knife-attacker. ATTENTION: If you think that knife-fighters only have two techniques - the stab and the over-hand stab - then you're gonna get cut. My knife-fighting classes taught that wise knife-fighters fight dirty, and will cut you and then hold you off, letting you get weak with blood loss before finishing you. Scary truth.

I spent a summer at a Muay Thai school where knife-fighting was part of the curriculum for the sole purpose of learning escrima and knife techniques. The instructor's master felt that people were being careless with their wooden knives. The next day, as students filed into class, they noticed that a ham-hock had replaced their heavy bag in the corner. Everyone nervously awaited the master's arrival. He walked in a few minutes late, drew his knife, and cut quickly and deeply into the ham hock, showing the bone beneath. He turned to the class as he resheathed his knife and said: "That is your arm. Class dismissed." A valuable lesson about knives.

My question for everyone is this: Do you teach any knife-fighting, or preparation in the eventuality of an "unfair" fight? If so, please share.

Pax Christi 



Date: 11/14/00 07:54:20 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Knife Fighting

I agree with what you said about knife fighting, especially
the part about "you will get cut." I would recommend adding
4-inch knife training to your stick training. A big weakness
of escrima/arnis/kali is that it assumes a blade of about
12 inches. That's fine in the Phillipines, but in America we
carry folding knives 3-6 inches in length, and boxcutters
with a quarter-inch blade. You physically cannot "snake
disarm" anything less than 4 inches in length. Even 4 inches
is highly doubtful. Five- and six-foot staff training is nice,
but I rarely see anything like that when I'm about town. In
contrast, short "sticks" and knives are readily available
everywhere I have been in America. Airlines even give you a
metal knife with your meals, that's how universal the weapon
is.

I live in Southern Calif where almost daily someone is stabbed.
Folding and fixed blade knives of all sizes are legal in Calif.
I appreciate and truly honor those who practice martial arts
for the "artistic" side of it. But for the other half of our
community, those like myself who are fascinated by the "martial"
part, I ask: Does your XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do curriculum
truly work against a knife?

In the summer of 2000 a guy broke into a home out here and
killed with a knife 4 inhabitants. He put inhabitant #5 in
the hospital with a punctured lung. Sinful, yes. He absolutely
violated God's moral code. But stupid he was not. He took out
5 people singlehandedly! Could you all out there in INCMA-Land
do the same? And how would your XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do
arsenal fair against him standing in your house? And what if
he had a knife?

If your sparring partner tomorrow used a knife of about 4 inches
in length (dull or sharp - your choice), would you spar him
any differently? Why or why not? What do you need to add or
subtract from your school's curriculum to give you a realistic
chance of defeating this intelligent, living, breathing, moving,
and dangerous "bad guy"? (Of course the #1 defense is to run
away, and #2 is to grab a weapon or shield, but the sparring
exercise assumes these options are not available.)

Now assume you both have a knife of about 4 inches in length,
and you "win" the fight. Is there any doubt that you couldn't
have won in an unarmed match by doing essentially the same
techniques? Flying side kicks and reverse punches and
kote-gaeshi are nice [I too learned all those things],
but there's something to be said for close-quarter combat
skills, especially when the bad guy is in your bedroom. 



Date: 11/15/00 02:31:05 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Cheap Knife Fighting

Thanks, Scott, for some great insights.

I wanted to add something that I have done in the past to simulate knife-fighting. You suggested that we practice with a simulated 4" blade or so. Here is a great source of such items which I have used in the past.

You poor artists will love this one:

Go to Wal-Mart and buy some 36" dowel rods.
Cut the dowels into two: a 28" and a 10" piece.
Use the 28" to teach escrima disarms and box drills.
(Dowels aren't rattan, so don't hit them hard together. You'll
have splinters on your hands... literally.)
Use the 10" to teach knife techniques... by the time the 10" is held in your hand, you get about a 5" blade.

Just something I've done for years that is easy and saves money. Besides, I feel stupid holding a rubber knife. *LOL*

Pax Christi 



Date: 11/15/00 02:44:58 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Re: Re: Knife Fighting

Good discussion!
I teach a hybrid kenpo style and steal anything that works from other systems. I also actively teach law enforcement defensive tactics. I agree with the position that we must train with & against smaller edged weapons, however there are principals of training in the Filipino arts that are pragmatic and practical.

One of my teachers uses 'butter' knives in training, they don't cut you very well, but you know if you've screwed up! One thing to understand though. If someone intends to kill you with a knife, you will probably never know what hit you. They will simply stab/slash you in a blind situation (walking by you, violent assault from behind, or non-advanced threat from the front) The attacker that displays a weapon is intimidating you more than attempting to kill you. It's about power.

David McNeill teaches an excellent knife 'system' and has commented that "Winners drip, losers gush" if you're in a knife fight, you're gonna bleed. Check out Dave's site at www.goju-shorei.com for more info on his system.

BTW: from a liability standpoint, don't call what you do 'knife fighting', try knife defense of edged weapong techniques. Knife fighting can set you up for a nasty vicarious liability lawsuit.

Protect yourself.
Respectfully,
Kevin Schaller 



Date: 11/15/00 03:16:06 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: Knife Fighting

Kevin mentioned a knife combat system that he likes,
David McNeil's Goju-Shorei. I know of a couple others,
and at the risk of tooting my own horn, I would
encourage everyone to investigate W. Hock Hochheim's
Scientific Fighting Congress. Take what you like,
leave what you don't. At the very least you'll be a
better informed martial artist. www.hockscqc.com is
the site. I'm a certified instructor of knife and
counter-knife combatives under Hock (www.hockscqc.com/knife),
and soon to be an instructor of arnis as well. Plus
I know lots of unarmed fighting material. Truthfully,
skill with a short-bladed knife significantly improves
one's empty-hand skills. 



Date: 11/17/00 10:46:18 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Knife Fighting

Article:
I agree that skill with a knife improves empty-hand.
How would you articulate it does so?
One aspect I think is the increased awareness of the intent of the attack or an increased vigilance in responding to the attack.
Also, increased emphasis on evasive and circular movement, whether in parries or footwork, joint-locking, etc.
What else would you add?

I studied an arnis style for one year - absolutely loved it! Even though I've trained in kenpo much longer, FMA is my favorite.
God bless and hello again to all my INCMA friends,
Sovann 



Date: 11/17/00 11:06:15 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Knife Fighting

Article:
Hi Scott,

Nice to see an arnis player here on the forum!! I hope you will share more of your training experience, maybe some drills, etc.

"I live in Southern Calif where almost daily someone is stabbed. "

I'm in Portland, OR but I spent jr high - college in San Gabriel Valley. Grad from USC.

"Folding and fixed blade knives of all sizes are legal in Calif.
I appreciate and truly honor those who practice martial arts
for the "artistic" side of it. But for the other half of our
community, those like myself who are fascinated by the "martial"
part, I ask: Does your XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do curriculum
truly work against a knife?"

Scott, this an absolutely essential question anyone who aspires or claims to address knife self-defense must ask but do you see how "XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do" does not sound (err: read) very appreciative or respectful to a style that has "ryu" or "do" in their style name; or towards traditional japanese arts? (I don't study a traditional art)

I hope you realize that when you say things like that some might stop listening to what your saying. This is not a good thing because what you are saying about realistic training, mindset and technique is extremely valuable.

"In the summer of 2000 a guy broke into a home out here and
killed with a knife 4 inhabitants. He put inhabitant #5 in
the hospital with a punctured lung. Sinful, yes. He absolutely
violated God's moral code. But stupid he was not. He took out
5 people singlehandedly! Could you all out there in INCMA-Land
do the same? And how would your XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do
arsenal fair against him standing in your house? And what if
he had a knife?"

Anyone in INCMA-land *could* do the same. Any untrained bozo with a knife could do the same - that's how dangerous a blade is. I think you agree. If he's in my house projectile and improvized weapon range is first until I can get a longer knife and a stick in the other hand .

I hope you hear what I'm saying Scott because I'm definately hearing what you are. I hope others will too. The "XYZ" stuff smacks of "my-style-is-better-than-yours".

Anyways, for disarming short folders what techs do you recommend?
Do you think "knife-tapping" drills are realictic vs folders/box-cutters? Or does that take too long to develop skill?
Have you seen Ron Balicki's knife videos or any Pekiti-Tirsia tapes? And how would you rate them compared to Hock's?

Thanks, Sovann 



Date: 11/19/00 04:59:14 PM
Name: Mark

Email: mmcgee@gmaf.org

Subject: Re: Knife Fighting

Article:
Knife fighting is part of most martial curriculums. Some MA systems spend more time with it than others. Most of the systems I've seen have at least one knife form and several defenses against single or multiple knife attacks. Many forms have knife defenses built into them. Some of the knife defenses knock the knife out of the attacker's hand. Some defenses redirect the knife into the attacker's body. Some defenses include moves to transfer the knife from the attacker's hand to the defender's hand.

Some systems use wooden knives. Some use rubber knives. Some use unsharpened knives. Some use sharpened knives. At least one system uses a piece of chalk. The attacker and defender have proof of what would have happened because chalk is left on their uniforms.

Once a student learns basic defenses against multiple direction attacks, the teacher should raise the level of training so the student does not know when or where he/she will be attacked. One thing that will teach them is how difficult it is to defend against a knife when you don't know it's coming at you. Even if the student sees the attacker coming at them with the knife visible, it is still difficult not to get cut or stabbed because the student doesn't know the direction of the attack.

A good curriculum should leave the student with knowledge of the danger of defending against a knife attack. The best thing for all of us is to stay away from situations and areas where a knife might be used. It's also good to think of using a shield as part of our defense. A coat, trash can lid, book, chair, almost anything within reach, could save our lives.

Good luck!

Mark McGee
GMAF 



Date: 11/19/00 06:33:15 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: improvements

“Under stress, we resort back to our repetition training. Rarely
if ever do people rise to our expections. We give medals to those
who rise to our expectations. That’s how rare and special it is.”
Conclusion: practice only that which you want to do under stress
and chaos.
Years ago, when Mike Tyson was taking the boxing world by storm,
he got in a fight at a bar. A very short fight. With one punch
Tyson knocked the guy into next week. But Tyson broke his hand
with that one punch, and had to go to the hospital. Why? Because
he resorted back to his repetition training, to his “muscle
memory.” Pro boxers don’t punch with a clenched fist. Watch them
shadow box in the gym. Their hands are loosly half-curled,
half-open. That’s how they punch. That’s why Tyson broke his own
hand. That’s not good if “good” means “effective in a real
encounter.” But if “good” means “number one in the ring,” well
then, I have to agree that it is good.

The blade forces you to be perfect. Everyone except some of the
Indonesian silats allows slack and gaps. For example, the wing
chun people leave a lot of space when they’re “trapping.” This is
fine empty-handed, but potentially lethal if the other guy has a
knife. Hmm. For example, the “karate block” does not work well
against a blade, because blades cut forearms. Hmm. A crescent kick
is defeated by merely moving the knife two inches. Hmm. The
taekwondo people don’t expect you to step on their foot, and they
don’t expect you to block their kicks with the point of your
knife. Hmm. The Gracies and Machados assume an unarmed opponent.
They’re not expecting you go pull a knife out of your pocket and
stab their kidney or inner thigh. Hmm.

Speed counts for a lot, I agree. So does muscle strength. We all
know this. But as in “rock-paper-scissors” there’s a third element
that sometimes trumps the other two: technical superiority. Look
at the Thai boxer’s elbow strike. There’s at least 10 inches of
space between his hand and his face as he throws that elbow. Why
not stick your own hand up there and literally cut him off at the
pass? Or, why not stab his armpit or lungs when he raises his
elbow? An elbow thrown from that far away can be blocked, you
know. Hmm.

It’s little things like this that don’t matter at all, or matter
very little, empty-hand versus empty-hand. But if you imagine the
other guy has a knife, and if you practice with a knife, you’ll
see a thousand opportunities for a cut or a stab. Upon realizing
these opportunities, you can learn to avoid and counter them. Upon
doing that, you will have a technically superior fighting style.
It only takes a slight modification of wing chun, a slight
modification of Thai boxing, a slight modification of most
everything else. You might not be the fastest, you might be the
strongest, but your technique will now be better than the other
guy’s. (And the Gracie’s made a fortune telling people that
technique is most important.) Now go back and spar that same guy
empty-hand versus empty-hand, remembering all that you have
learned. Unless he suddenly became greased lightning, he’ll
think he’s fighting the wind because you’ll never be where you’re
supposed to be. Wow. 



Date: 11/19/00 07:04:54 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Knife Fighting

> Scott, this an absolutely essential question anyone who
> aspires or claims to address knife self-defense must ask
> but do you see how "XYZ Jitsu-ryu Whatever-do" does
> not sound (err: read) very appreciative or respectful to a
> style that has "ryu"or "do" in their style name; or towards
> traditional japanese arts?
>
No. Far from it. Every Japanese and Korean martial art uses the
suffixes ryu, jitsu, and do. (Shorin-ryu Karate-do, Daito-ryu
Ju-jitsu, kendo, hapkido, tang soo do) I began in traditional
taekwondo -- another “do” art. Later I was a student at two
eclectic schools that teach martial arts from all around the
world. Out of all that cultural background, both of those schools
chose only Japanese for their school name: Hama Ryu-Jutsu, and
Balika Ju-jitsu. That's not being disrespectful to the Chinese
and French and Thai arts.
 

> Anyone in INCMA-land *could* do the same. Any untrained
> bozo with a knife could do the same - that's how dangerous a
> blade is. I think you agree. If he's in my house projectile and
> improvized weapon range is first until I can get a longer knife
> and a stick in the other hand .
>
I would be honestly impressed and amazed if you could take out
five people. That’s a huge feat. I wasn’t talking about randori or
point sparring with a referee and a big, open mat. I was talking
about “Wild Kingdom” when the lion pounces on the antelope, and
there is no one to help, no one to call time-out. And to make it
harder but real, I was talking about the confinements of a house,
where spinning hook kicks don’t work. But you’re completely right
-- any bozo with a knife has an excellent chance of victory.
That’s my whole point. Why should he win and we “martial artists”
with years of training lose? Are we not doing something wrong?
Almost no one in the martial arts community takes a knife
seriously. Pick any MA book off the shelf at Barnes & Nobel.
The knife defenses will involve the attacker freezing still,
like a mime imitating a bronze statue, after either a stab
to the stomach, or an overhead stab. That's as far as it goes.
Thank you, here's your black belt.
 

> Anyways, for disarming short folders what techs do you
> recommend?
>
Impact disarms can work against any weapon. By that I mean, whack
his hand/wrist. Next best, for your ordinary 4-5 inch folder, is
to grab his wrist, and twist it into the position you want. Then
start working on his fingers. The thumb and thumb pad are the
“key” to almost every disarm, so that’s the first finger to try.
It’s big (compared to the rest of his hand), it’s shaped like a
handle, it’s easy to find, and by pulling his thumb pad you will
release his grip almost completely. With your other hand, grab or
press against the blade and twist it out like it’s a lever arm.
Yes, the blade is sharp, but the flat side is not. (But did
you really expect that you wouldn’t get cut?) This is called a
“push-pull” release. One of your hands is pushing, and the other
is pulling. His thumb goes one way, his other four fingers go the
other way, the knife in the middle falls out. It works well
against long weapons too.
 

> Do you think "knife-tapping" drills are realictic vs
> folders/box-cutters? Or does that take too long to develop
> skill?
>
I don’t know what that is. Do you mean knife trapping, as in
the “tapi tapi” trapping hands drills? Yes, trapping hands drills
are great, as long as you remember to take out the slack and
leave no gaps. When you trap, you’d better actually “trap” as in
“he can’t swing his arm at the elbow joint and cut your belly.”
When you parry, don’t give him the freedom of arcing around to cut
you somewhere else. This is where wing chun makes a mistake. Their
trapping skills are *fantastic* emtpy-hand versus empty-hand. But
you give one of them a knife, and he’ll have 6-12 inches of
freedom in which to shred his partner’s arms and abdomen. Hmm.
 

> Have you seen Ron Balicki's knife videos or any Pekiti-Tirsia
> tapes? And how would you rate them compared to Hock's?
>
I know people who know Ron, but I haven’t seen his curriculum.
Ron is an Inosanto student, married Inosanto’s daughter, and
competed in the tournament circuit. My guess, and it’s merely a
guess, is that Ron doesn’t play with short knives. I say this
because Inosanto doesn’t play with short knives.

I’ll use Dan Inosanto as an example. Inosanto is a fantastic
martial artist, but he’s never been in a real fight. He trains his
students for tournaments, and they win, but tournaments have
rules. Hock is different. Hock has been in real fights as an MP
and state police officer, and he’s interviewed people who have
been in real fights, and he’s trained from people who have been in
real fights. Hock learned from people who saw the blood flow
and saw what the enemy ate for breakfast that morning. This is
gross, yes, but fighting is gross, and you and are paying money to
learn how to fight, are we not? Hock is not necessarily a better
fighter than Inosanto, and vice versa. I attended one of Dan’s
seminars. He is so fast and so precise and so knowledgable, that
I’m sure he could beat up 12 armed opponents simultaneously and
not even break a sweat. But that’s not the point. The two men are
have completely different approaches to fighting. Hock is a 6th
dan twice, a 3rd dan, and a 2nd dan, but he will cheat if he
fights you. Hock will bite your nose and spit in your eye. I don’t
think Dan will tell you to do that. I know for a fact a great many
martial arts instructors would be agast at the idea. But Hock will
tell you that if it works, then do it. Hock will tell you that
if you’re in a fair fight, you haven’t trained well enough.

Everyone decides what he or she wants from the martial arts. If
you want calisthetics, great. If you want sport competition,
great. If you want back-alley brawls, great. Just recognize that
these categories overlap very little. They are almost mutually
exclusive, so pick your instructors accordingly. 



Date: 11/19/00 06:52:30 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: beginning training drills

Sovann asked for some new training drills with a blade, etc.
They're hard to explain in words, but I’ll try two "easy" ones here.

The first is called the “military catch-kick-punch-throw,”
because that’s what you do. Some people say you should never
try to grab the knife or knife-wielding hand, because doing so
will get you killed. Baloney. There’s someone giving a report to
the police right now who lived to give that report because she
grabbed the weapon bearing limb. It’s true! But I’m not saying
always grab the knife. You can’t go into a fight thinking “I’m
going to grab his wrist.” Uh-uh. But if and when the opportunity
presents itself then you’d better grab that arm.

Your partner plays the role of “attacker” with a knife. He will
come at you from all different angles, mixing slices and stabs,
but one strike at a time. This is a drill, not a sparring match.
Upon each attack, you, unarmed, will 1) catch the weapon-bearing
limb any way you can with two hands/arms. Not one hand, but two
hands. Any catch/seizure is fine. Then 2) kick him. It can be a
kick with the foot, the shin, the knee. Now that he is stunned a
little bit, you can risk 3) letting go with one hand to punch his
face or neck. It could be any punch -- fist, open palm, eye jab,
spear, knife edge, elbow, whatever. Now that he’s been stunned
with a punch, you have a change to 4) throw him to the floor. Any
throw or sweep is fine. Just remember that he’s still holding a
knife that could cut or stab you on the way down, and that he
could try to pull you down with him as he falls.
The drill could stop here, but you should recognize that in real
life, the fight is not over. He still holds a knife, and he’s
probably still conscious, and he’s probably really, really,
angry with you for kicking and hitting him. You should continue
with 5) an immediate follow-up strike, or four or five strikes,
the instant his body hits the floor. It’s for times like this that
karate/TKD people break boards! Wow, the situation is perfect,
because most throws will put the attacker at your feet. You can
drop to one knee, plant your fist on your side, and pile-drive a
punch right through those “boards” or “bricks.” (I’m refering to
his chest cavity or his skull.) Hey, he had a knife and tried to
kill you, remember?

Here’s another one, called “cut-catch-stab-release.”
This time you both have a knife. Your partner will attack, one
angle at a time, from all different directions, sometimes slicing,
sometimes stabbing. At each attack (remember this is a drill, not
a sparring match), you will 1) cut the incoming arm at his hand,
wrist, or forearm, and 2) grab his wrist. Then you 3) stab him.
After you get comfortable with this drill, you can add another
layer of complexity. Upon your stab, step 3 above, your partner
(the one who initiated the attack) will 4) grab your incoming
wrist before he gets stabbed. You two are now in an “even Steven”
position. You will now 5) release his hold on you, somehow, and
deliver what you hope is a fatal cut or stab. After you get
comfortable with this, you can add another layer of complexity.
After delivering what you hope is a fatal blow in step 5 above,
you then must 6) throw him to the ground somehow, and 7) follow
up with more strikes/cuts/stabs.

Nothing works all the time, and people who are dead can still be
a threat, especially when they hold a knife. In war soldiers
sometimes drop from one bullet, and sometimes they keep charging
with 12 bullet holes in their chest. You never know. That’s why
these drills go from first contact to kill. In a real situtation
you might have a moral or legal obligation to bail out early.
Do so.

These drills are not sophisticated. They're basically aiki-jitsu.
They're easily countered. For example, a common throw is
kote-gaeshi. But kote-gaeshi can be countered at least 4
different ways. Hmm. And the guy doing the counter has a knife
in his hand. Hmm. Not good. But this is where you have to begin.
Few of us have ever considered trying o-soto-gari or irimi-nage
against a guy with a knife in his hand. How do you do it without
getting cut yourself as he falls? With practice, that's how. And
with slight modifications to traditional ju-jitsu.

I'm having trouble describing the sophisticated drills in words,
the ones that are very hard to counter. If I can put them into
words, I'll post them. 



 Date: 12/18/00 12:59:05 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Knife Fighting
 
On the subject of Knife fighting. I think most of what was mentioned up to this point is true. Knife fighting is very serious and should be avoided completely if at all possible. Weather you're an experienced martial artrist or not. I won't try to claim any serious expertise re: knife combat but I will say the knowledge I've received from some very well informed individuals makes me understand that I never want any part of a real knife fight. It may not be an exaggeration to say that Dr. Gyi of the American Bando Association probably has as much or more than anyone living to say , with authority, on the subject. The man has lived it as a combatant in jungle warfare and hand-to-hand combat in many actions in WWII and other conflicts. I've been to some of his seminars and within Bando, to my knowledge, there are very few, if any disarms taught at all. Everything taught is purely offensive. Dr. Gyi has first-hand live experience with opponents who have tried to "pass" his blade. That's why Dr. Gyi always emphasizes over and over again that the fine motor skills neccessary to execute disarms and counters at a moment of extreme crises just degrade too much to be of value, not to mention that the mind simply cannot access too much information during moments of extreme stress, ergo the emphasis on offensive skills. You're right Scott, it is scary stuff. Before this message gets too downright morbid, let it just be said that, in a knife situation, you do what you have to, and/or what you can. I'd rather know something and train in it hard than know nothing at all, but I'm not going to kid myself into thinking If I just do A-B-C I'll come out of it alive. For the life of me I can't see why anyone, especially a serious martrial artist would be involved in a knife fight.
God bless, Chris 



Date: 12/20/00 12:56:16 AM
Name: Anonymous

Email:

Subject: Re: Bando
 
> For the life of me I can't see why anyone, especially a
> serious martrial artist, would be involved in a knife fight.
>
Ask Dr. Gyi of the American Bando Association. Ask your local cops. Knife fights happen
all the time in the USA. Me, I don’t want to be in a fight at all, of any kind. I don’t want
to box or wrestle or kick or anything with anybody outside the training hall.

Bando is cool. I’ve heard good things about it, but never tried it. Some day I’m going to
get me a real kukri, just because they look good.

Dr. Gyi is absolutely right about fine motor skills versus big and simple, and favoring
offense over defense. Impact disarms (chop his weapon-bearing limb) are always the best
idea. I think I said that somewhere. Well, actually, cutting his throat is the best idea, but
lethal force is not always appropriate. Inappropriate use of lethal force makes you a
criminal. It’s a felony. Be wise, or expect to be arrested and prosecuted. (I’m in law
school. I read about use of force in class.) Passing a kukri is theoretically possible, but
under certain scenarios it would be tough because the blade is a foot long. I’d rather not
try it. Stripping a kukri would also be tricky, because of the curved shape. I’d have to
think about how to strip it without scarring my arm. It’s probably a bad idea. But, I’ve
never seen a kukri worn or carried on the streets of America, so my interest in that
weapon is merely academic. On the other hand, passing a 4-inch Spyderco Endura, or a 3
1/2 -inch Victorinox Swiss Army knife, or a box cutter from KMart, is a different story. It
is not only possible, but people have done it, and lived to tell about it. But now we’re back
to square one, that impact disarms are always the prefered defense. By the way, the impact
disarm need not be from your own knife or stick. You can also whack his forearm with
your fists and palms. I’ve lost training knives that way on several occassions.

The two best defenses are: impact disarm, and total body adhesion. Either you maintain a
long distance, or you become like a second layer of skin to the bad guy. I haven’t said
anything about adhesion on this forum. The in between ranges -- boxing and
trapping/grabbing -- are where the knife is most dangerous, and where you are sure to get
cut. For that matter, the in between ranges are where every martial art will kill you --
boxing, karate, kung fu, all of them. The in between ranges are dangerous, dangerous,
dangerous. That’s probably what the Bando people were telling you. I’ll bet they got all
their disarms from far away, by lopping off hands, and got all their kills in the middle two
ranges. But I doubt they ever tried to fight inside their opponent’s tee-shirt, standing up.
Silat is the only style I know of that fights inside the tee-shirt while standing up.

You’re right -- “you do what you have to do.” You fight through the pain. You fight
despite the pain. War proves that the human body can even sometimes continue despite
mortal wounds. This mindset applies to “ju-jitsu” wrist locks as well. One sure way to
defeat wrist locks is to ignore the pain, and then punch the guy’s teeth out, or whatever
target is available. He’ll never expect it, and he probably won’t see it coming. I did that in
class one time, off nikkyo (“large hand wrap” in chin-na, “S lock” in American systems).
Well, I didn’t really hit the guy, I just simulated it. Took him completely by surprise. I had
a sprained wrist for two weeks, so I don’t recommend you try this, but it taught me a
weakness in wrist locks. After this incident I learned three or four counters to nikkyo that
don’t involve me hurting myself. Totally cool stuff. Despite being a knife fighter, I don’t
enjoy pain. I seek to avoid pain. I also seek to counter everything that everybody all over
the world is doing, but that’s why I study the knife. A mistake in boxing means that you
have a black eye. Those guys go 8 or 10 rounds all the time. A mistake in knife fighting
means that you’re meeting Jesus. I’m all for meeting Jesus, but not until my little girl is
grown up. If I can deal with a knife attack, you can bet your bottom dollar that I can deal
with Evander Holyfield and whoever makes the cover of Black Belt Magazine.
Conceptually, anyway. Those guys are pretty fast, so maybe they’ll knock me unconscious before I can
move.

Tell me more about bando, and the ABA. I don't know anything in particular about bando, other than having seen the distinctive weapon. 



Date: 12/27/00 11:35:40 PM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: Re: Bando
 
I won't claim to be a serious student of Bando, but I do have some exposure to it. I have a good friend who is a Bando instructor. He was probably one of the last people who was trained from the bottom up by Dr. Gyi and I've survived some of his classes. I've also been to some of Dr. Gyi's seminars. The man is truly amazing and from another time. Although I have to say he is pretty much a Buddhist and an Animist , even though I haven't heard him come out and say it out loud it's something he preaches a good bit.
But back to Bando itself. I wasn't able to make it to the last knife seminar he held but my instructor and classmates who went told me about it. The knife that he used at the last camp was not the Kukri as you might think, but the k-bar. These were live blades. No disarms, but a lot of thrusting motions, striking patterns, etc. into hard objects, mostly logs. Everyone said that they're hands would get pretty beat up after slamming up against the crosspiece (sorry for my lack of technical vocab regarding the parts of the knife).
Bando is a very complete system. An excellent system. I know a lot of styles claim as much but in the case of Bando it really applies. Bando practitioners pride themselves on their mental and physical hardness and pretty much figure they will win if , all things being equal, it comes down to a war of attrition. You may know that Bando has, I believe about 9 or so animals within their style, each being a system within itself and pretty much based on a persons physical qualities. For example if you are a thickset muscular individual you might be a Boar or a Bull stylist. From what I've seen Dr. Gyi pretty much takes one look at you and says, "you are a Bull" and that's it. I was fortunate enough to attend a Boar stick seminar that was hosted by our school and it was awesome, even though I am definitely not a Boar. Dr. Gyi let us know that when he trained Merril's Marauders in WW2, out of 300 guys that he trained or helped to train, only 1 was killed in hand-to-hand combat and that was because he was bayonnetted from behind. He often likes to joke that some martial arts styles are like Corvettes, some are like Ferrari's, some others like Cadillacs, but Bando is the "dump-truck" system. It's ugly but gets the job done. Hope this info is of some use to you. God bless. Chris 



 Date: 11/29/00 12:05:28 PM
Name: Anonymous

Email:

Subject: intermediate knife defense drill
 
Knife fighting technique:
Instead of grabbing, slapping, kicking, blocking, or ducking the incoming steel, sometimes (but by no means all the time) the best strategy at the moment is to parry the attacker’s cut, and then make your own attack. Here I describe one possible parry with
immediate combative follow-up strikes, and apply it to three different attacks. I apply the technique knife-versus-knife and knife-versus-unarmed, and then point out how the same concept works unarmed-versus-unarmed. For ease of description I assume the attacker holds his knife in the “saber grip,” the armed defender uses the “reverse grip,” and they both begin from a right lead. The technique can be molded in obvious ways to fit other initial conditions. Also, the knives could be anything from cheap boxcutters to custom Bowie knives, because the principle transcends blade size.

1) Downward diagonal slash to the neck
Intending to cut the defender’s head, neck, or shoulder, the assailant attacks in a downward diagonal slash (forehand, not backhand). The defender parries the incoming blow by raising his knife hand up, and hooking, from below, the assailant’s wrist with his own knife, then guiding the offending weapon down and to his own right side. As he does this, he leans his body away from the incoming knife and steps slightly forward and to his own left, so as to put space between the weapon and himself. The forward movement is important, because it sets him up for everything that follows.

As the knife reaches mid-chest level, the defender securely grabs the assailant’s elbow with his left hand. The purpose of this grab is to control the weapon-bearing limb lest the attacker suddenly change direction and try to cut the defender’s ribs or
abdomen. Note that the defender does not stand directly face-to-face with his attacker, but rather he stands slightly off to the side, at an angle to the assailant. This spatial geometry puts him in a superior position, albeit briefly, relative to the assailant. Note also that they are obviously standing close together, since the defender is holding onto the attacker’s arm.
The defender had to move forward on his parry in order to get close enough to grab the attacker’s elbow, and set him up for the fall that comes later.

The first blow has been diffused. The fight now continues. Knowing that the assailant will continue his assault, and feeling strength and determination in the assailant’s arm, our defender has not stopped moving either. His counter-attack, described
next, flows seamlessly from his parry above. There is no break in his movements, no dead time at all, because his opponent holds a very sharp knife.

The defender’s counter-attack begins with a cut to the attacker’s
bicep. If the cut goes deep enough into the muscle, the attacker loses the ability to bend his arm.
* Option here * At this point the defender can 1) run away, or 2) continue to use less-than-lethal force, or 3) continue with the lethal attacks described next. I’m describing lethal counter-attacks next only because we “good guys” need to be aware of what a “bad guy” might do to us, and because we martial artists are in the business of collecting this sort of information for the next generation. Ethical and legal realities might forbid lethal force
in a particular actual encounter, but I would hope our side never forgets how to execute lethal techniques. Our children or grandchildren might need to know this stuff. Our armed forces today need to know this stuff, for that matter.

So, continuing from that bicep cut, the defender continues his non-stop motion with an immediate stab to the attacker’s neck. You can see how quick this could be, because he’s standing so close to the attacker, and he’s pinned the attacker’s nearest
arm. Upon twisting the knife out through the attacker’s windpipe, the defender takes a small step forward with his right foot, placing his right foot up against the assailant’s right foot, on
the inside. Without stopping or even retarding this forward motion, the defender stabs into the assailant’s sternum while simultaneously pressing his shin against the assailant’s shin.
The step forward, the shin press, and the chest stab -- all three -- must be executed together as one. It is all ONE movement. Done forcefully this will break the assailant’s leg
at the knee, and also bury the knife deeper into his chest than would a singular stab. At the very least the shin press will cause the attacker to stumble backwards.

As the attacker stumbles backwards, the defender pulls his knife out of his chest, cuts the attacker’s bicep a second time (or maybe cuts his deltoid muscle, for variety), and runs past
the attacker. Hey, the attacker might have friends. This might not have been a one-on-one encounter. If the attacker does not fall, then as the defender starts to run behind the attacker, his knife arm pins (or at least presses) the attacker’s knife arm against the attacker’s body. This is for two reasons: (1) to prevent the attacker from cutting or stabbing him, now that the
defender has finally let go of his elbow, and (2) to try to stab the attacker’s kidney or liver. Of course, the longer the blade, the better the chance of getting this stab.

If the defender was unarmed, he can still perform the essence of this technique. An unarmed defender can still parry the initial blow with a hook of his wrist, instead of a hook with his knife. He can replace the first bicep cut with a finger jab to the
eyes. He can replace the sternum stab with a palm strike to the sternum. The shin press remains the same. Obviously it is no longer a lethal-force technique, but it is quite debilitating.

2) Horizontal slash to the ribs
The technique above works just as well against a forehand slash to the ribs or midsection. As the assailant swings, the defender intercepts the incoming wrist by hooking it, from above, with his own knife, and parries the blow away. This time the parry
comes down from above, not up from below. As he parries the blow he steps slightly forward and to his own left, so as to be on the “outside” away from the both the knife and the assailant’s
other fist. Once the knife is cleared the defender grabs the attacker’s elbow and secures it.

The defender is now in the same superior position as he was in the previous scenario. Exactly as before, the defender will cut the attacker’s bicep, then (if and only if lethal force is warranted) stab his neck, then step forward and execute the
simultaneous torso stab and shin press. Then, as the attacker stumbles backwards the defender will run past him as he cuts the bicep or deltoid again, and circles his arm down to pin the attacker’s arm against a possible cut, and to get in an extra stab.

Again, the essence of this technique can be performed empty-handed as well. The wrist does the hooking, the cuts are eye jabs, and the sternum stab is a palm strike. The shin press remains the same.

3) Stab to the abdomen
The exact same technique can be used against a thrusting stab to the abdomen, whether armed or unarmed.

But wait - if this technique can be performed unarmed against a
thrusting knife, then couldn’t it be performed as an unarmed-versus-unarmed “boxing” technique? Yes! For that matter, if you preface the parry with a block (unless the attacker is significantly slower than you), then the rib cut might instead be a hook punch. In sparring matches we’ve all parried punches, and we’ve all had the opportunity to grab an elbow. Certainly we could
combine the two, and then do what was described above. At the very least the shin press can be incorporated into a “karate/kickboxing” arsenal.

A caution is needed: the shin press is extremely dangerous. It puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the receiving knee (here, the attacker’s knee). In the training hall you absolutely must do it very slowly and very gently. 



Date: 12/1/00 10:31:17 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: defensive drill for every hand strike
 
One defensive drill covering almost every hand strike there is

Straight punch:
Your partner punches you with his lead hand, a straight shot to your nose or neck or solar plexus. There are two possible reactions. I call them the Two-Beat drill and the Three-Beat drill.

In the Two-Beat drill, 1) your lead hand parries his punch (beat one), then 2) your rear hand pins his elbow to the center of his chest so that he’s temporarily immobilized (beat two), then 3) your lead hand punches him. He then defends the same way, and back and forth it goes. If you’ve seen Bruce Lee’s movie “Enter the Dragon,” I’m describing the way they began their tournament fights.

In the Three-Beat drill, 1) your rear hand parries his punch (beat one), then 2) your front hand parries his forearm away, so as to get his arm out of the way (beat two), so that 3) your rear hand
can pin his elbow to the center of his chest (beat 3). Then 4) punch him with your lead hand. He in turn defends the same way, and back and forth you go.

In an actual encounter, the elbow pin and the follow-up strike would occur simultaneously. They would be one single movement, just like Bruce Lee did it in his movie. For the sake of the drill we break them apart into two separate movements. Why? So that you and your partner can go back and forth, back and forth, continuously and seamlessly, without any pauses in time. But every now and then you should punch and pin simultaneously, to remind your brain and your body that that’s how it would really be done. This holds true for all of the strikes described below. Every now and then you should strike and pin simultaneously.

As you get comfortable with this drill, move your feet a little bit. Move your hips. Float like a boxer. This is not a mobility drill, so don’t get carried away. Just don’t be a statue frozen to the floor.

There are two reasons for having a Two-Beat and a Three-Beat version. One, because that’s the way you’ll actually block real punches. Sometimes you’ll catch them with your lead hand, and sometimes you’ll catch them with your rear hand. Second, the Three-Beat version is great with a knife. Put a knife in your lead hand. Now that second parry in the Three-Beat drill, the one with your lead hand, isn’t just to move his arm out of the way. It’s now a stab into his upper arm, or into his armpit. It’s now a scccrrraaappe down his entire forearm, shaving the skin and hair off his arm. And in the Two-Beat version, you’re not just parrying his punch. You’re cutting his hand or wrist as you parry. It’s a strike with the edge of your knife.

Practice this drill from both right and left lead. Practice this drill with and without a knife in your hand. When you are holding a knife, the “punch” could still be a punch with your knuckles, or it could be a stab.

Switching leads:
Switching leads requires a momentary variation in the rhythm. The person switching leads has to add an extra beat. He does this by patting his partner’s elbow or forearm one extra time. That is,
if he was doing a Three-Beat drill, he adds a fourth beat just this once. This extra beat is what switches his lead, so that he now punches with his other hand. Often the partner won’t have time
to respond with his own Three-Beat drill, but even if he is fast enough to respond with three beats, for the sake of switching leads he must respond with Two-Beats.

It is possible for you and your partner to be in opposite leads. If you initiate a lead change, but your partner responds with three beats instead of two, then you will have switched leads but he will remain in his old lead. This is fine. It’s realistic.

In this exact same way, you can switch leads from all of the strikes described next:

Thai elbow:
Say your partner cocks his right arm back so as to deliver a Thai boxer’s elbow strike. Your defense begins with you rolling your right shoulder and tucking your chin down into your right shoulder. This is to protect your jaw from the blow to come. Simultaneously, put you left hand (palm out) up by your right cheek. This is to absorb some of the blow should it get through the main defense, which I describe now. Simultaneously with these defensive positions (chin tuck, hand by your cheek, shoulder rolled), stick your right arm straight out, at an upward angle, and bring it up flush against the underside of your partner’s cocked-back arm. You’ve just made a “train track” for his elbow strike to follow. His elbow is forced to slide along the path of your outstretched arm, past your head. You might have to duck a little bit to avoid getting nicked in the forehead by the point of his elbow, but largely, you have avoided the mighty Thai elbow.

As his elbow slides past your head, pull your right arm back and down, bending it at the elbow. Pin his right arm with your left hand. In an actual encounter, you would continue here with appropriate follow-up strikes. For the sake of the drill, let go of him and then feed him an elbow strike of your own (or a punch, or any other strike). Back and forth, back and forth, the drill goes.

Now put a knife in your hand, either hand. As your partner cocks back his right arm and throws the Thai elbow shot, you’ll notice his entire right side from armpit to foot, is wide open and completely unprotected. As his elbow comes down at you, you’ll notice also that his entire back is wide open and completely unprotected. After you block the elbow strike, you’ll notice that his back and half of his right side are still wide open and completely unprotected. Stabbing him is included in the “appropriate follow-up strikes.”

This drill can be thought of as a Two-Beat drill. The first beat is catching and ducking the elbow. The second beat is pinning your partner’s arm to his chest. Switch leads back and forth so that you practice with both sides, with and without a knife.

Hook punch to the head:
Say your partner throws a hook punch to your head, with his right arm. Your defense is to raise your left arm and intercept his punch. You do this by holding out your arm in an S shape, bent at the elbow and wrist, fingers straight out. You’ll look like an Egyptian dancer. Or, think of making a swan hand shadow. The block is done by pushing the palm of your hand into his bicep, just above the elbow. Your forearm connects with his forearm, making a solid barrier. His hook punch is completely jammed, and stops dead in its tracks. With your right arm, come up under his forearm and parry his arm up and to your right, across his body. Now pin his elbow with your left hand, and feed him a hook punch.

Practice this with both right-hand and left-hand hook punches. This drill can be thought of as a Three-Beat drill. Beat one jamming his arm at the bicep. Beat two is parrying his arm across his body. Beat three is the elbow pin.

If you have a knife in your right hand, then the parry is really a stab into his armpit or upper arm, followed by a scrape along his forearm (taking his skin off). If you switched leads at some point
so that you’re blocking with your knife hand, then the palm-to-his-bicep is now a knife-to-his-bicep. Instead of pinning his elbow with your hand, you will pin his forearm, barely below the elbow, with the edge of your knife.

Hook punch to the body:
Suppose instead of a hook punch to your head, your partner throws a hook to your ribs. You can block it one of two ways, depending on exactly how low the punch is. You can bend your legs at the knees so as to drop your body down, and proceed as if it was a hook to your jaw. Or, you can execute basically a “mirror image” of that block by thrusting your arm down, and jamming his arm almost at the elbow with either your forearm or the knife edge of your hand. Then parry his arm down and across his body with your other arm, and pin his elbow to his chest.

If you have a knife in your blocking hand, then your block would incorporate pressing his bicep with your blade. Instead of pinning his elbow with your hand, you would press your blade against his forearm, at a spot barely below his elbow. If instead your knife is in your other hand, then the parry would be prefaced with a downward cut to his face, neck, chest, or whatever body part happens to be in the way. You might also get a cut to his abdomen as your bring his arm across his body.

Backfist:
Say your partner throws a backfist. The strike could be in a horizontal plane, or it could be a downward on a diagonal plane, or it could be downward on a vertical plane. It could be with or without a knife. The defense is to block it with either one hand, or with two hands. (Two hands is safer.) Either way, if you and your partner freeze in place, you’ll notice that you look like Bruce Lee and his opponents in “Enter the Dragon.” You’re in the Two-Beat position. So, your defense is to pin his elbow to his chest, and then feed a strike to your partner. Back and forth it goes. If you had a knife in your lead hand, you would “block” with the edge of your knife meeting his hand or wrist. If you had a knife in your rear hand, you would pin his arm with the edge of your knife.

Diagonal chop, forehand:
This might look silly empty-handed, but when your partner swings at you with a knife, it’s definitely not silly. It's also not silly if your partner is doing a "karate chop" with his forearm onto your neck. The forearm is pretty much a lead pipe. Say your partner attacked with his right hand. With your left arm, block his forearm (not his bicep) with essentially the same S-shaped "walk like an Egyptian” block you used against the hook punch. Your fingers are sticking out so that you could, in a real fight, poke his eyes. Now, parry his arm across his body with your right hand, and then pin his elbow with your left hand. You are now free to strike him, and on and on the drill goes. This is a Three-Beat drill: beat one is the block, beat two is the parry, beat three is the elbow pin.

If you have a knife in your right hand, the parry represents stabbing his armpit or upper arm, and then scraping the skin off his forearm. If you have a knife in your other hand, the blocking hand, then either 1) the fingers-to-the-eyes is now a knife-in-your-face, or 2) you’re blocking his arm with the edge of your blade. Instead of pinning his elbow with your hand, you will pin his forearm, barely below his elbow, with the edge of your blade.

Uppercut:
Your partner throws an uppercut either to your abdomen or to your chin. You’ll block each the same, by doing basically a mirror image of the block used against the diagonal chop above. Against the diagonal chop, you raised your arm up, and blocked his forearm with your forearm. Here, as the uppercut comes in, thrust your arm down, and block the inside of his forearm with the back of your forearm. Say your partner punched with his right hand, so you blocked with your left hand. Next, with your right arm, come over the top of your partner’s arm and parry it across his body (toward your right). Now with your left hand, pin his elbow to his chest. This is a Three-Beat drill. Beat one is the block, beat two is the parry, beat three is the pin.

If your partner has a knife, the abdomen punch might instead be a stab. But if you have a knife in your parrying hand, then as you come over the top of your partner’s arm for the parry, you could
be cutting his neck, his chest, his other arm, or whatever body part happens to be in the path of the knife. You might also get a cut to his abdomen as you complete the parry. If instead you have
a knife in your blocking hand, then as you block you could be cutting his chest and/or abdomen.

Put it all together
Now put these all together. Mix them all up -- straight punch, followed by hook punch, followed by another straight punch, then an uppercut, then an elbow, etc. Whatever. Switch leads back and
forth. Make it real. Make it your dance.

And what about low kicks? Add some! Just keep the kicks below the belt line, so that you stay within punching range. Remember that the purpose of this drill is to develop your hand techniques.

Now, in this one single drill, you are doing 99% of the curriculum of Thai and Western boxing, and a significant part of karate, taekwondo, tang soo do, and similar kung fus. This is fantastic
training. Think about it: how many ways are there to block? Up, down, in, and out. How many ways can you punch? Straight on, or horizontally from the sides, or punch up, or punch in a downward direction, or slash on the diagonals. That’s really all there is, and you did it all. Maybe the “backhand” was really a knife edge. Maybe the “straight punch” was really a tiger claw. Whatever. It’s all in this one drill.
This is the basic drill. Advanced blocking techniques and variations of those already described can be layered on top of this version.

For those who know joint locks (and I hope that is everyone), the next progression is to get your locks on the fly in this drill. As your partner feeds you a straight punch, for example, practice
getting a wrist lock, or a shoulder lock, or a throw, or whatever. All the “ju-jitsu” locks and sweeps and throws can be done from within this drill. Now you are doing almost everything that is possible, from every martial art, while standing on your feet. All punches, all low kicks, all stand-up grappling, is occurring in one place at one time. The only thing missing are kicks above the waist, and wrestling.

The next progression is to do the counters to the locks and takedowns. As your partner tries to get a wrist lock, for example, perhaps in a attempt to disarm your knife, you should counter him.
That’s right, the guy with the knife can counter locks and throws too. This is serious stuff. Not only can the knife defeat the pugilist at his own game (as we saw above), but the knife can defeat the grappler as well, by cutting as he counters the locks.

Wow! Punches, kicks, locks, throws, counters to everything, mixing empty-hand and weapons, changing leads back and forth -- now you’re actually fighting, but in a controlled and safe way. This is as real as it gets without someone getting his teeth knocked out. Fantastic stuff going on here. 



Date: 12/6/00 09:19:30 PM
Name: Sovann

Email: Pens@juno.com

Subject: Re: defensive drill for every hand strike
 
Scott,

Dude!! Thanks for taking the time to share those drills.
The two-beat and three-beat were called cadena de mano "chain of hands" in the style I learn them, similar to hubud lubud. It's fun to add inward and outward wrist locks, headbutts, knees and elbows and elbow breaks and sweeps.

More fun stuff to play with!! Sovann  



Date: 12/6/00 09:11:19 PM
Name: Anonymous

Email:

Subject: Re: beginning training drills
 
Hi Scott,

Some more questions on the second drill:

I don't understand the second step:why you grab the wrist?
It seems that 1) you would have already disarmed his knife hand (defang the snake)with the first cut and 2) That area would be slippery with blood and hard to control.
Are you grabbing to clear the limb for the stab?
If so, I would suggest trapping with your alive hand by the elbow and angling off (if you hadn't already with the first cut) to the outside of the attacking limb. Your opponent would then have to cross centerline to grab your stab which would be very hard since you have half the distance to his throat and you started first.

If he does catch your stab, what techs do you suggest to secure the release? Kicks, knees? Releasing the wrist and strike with alive hand? Footwork?

Thanks again. I appreciate you sharing these drills and would like to try them soon, Sovann  



Date: 12/7/00 09:46:54 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: beginning training drills
 
> I don't understand the second step: why
> you grab the wrist? It seems that 1) you
> would have already disarmed his knife
> hand (defang the snake) with the first cut
> and 2) That area would be slippery with
> blood and hard to control.
>
I don’t know that I disarmed his knife. I hope I did. Maybe
he’s wearing a jacket, and my cut didn’t quite go deep
enough to get a disarm. There is a separate drill that adopts
the assumption that I did disarm him. For that drill, insist
that your partner (the attacker) drop his knife. This is for
your mental training. (Knife gone = safe to charge. Knife
present = danger = keep my distance.) Upon him dropping
his knife, you charge in, and strike him 6+ times. Anything -
punches, kicks, stabs. Cuts are extra, because if it’s not a
cut to neck, it might not go deep enough for him to feel it
soon enough, and it makes you look like you don't know what you're doing. Now throw him to the ground, and strike 6+
more times. Anything - knees to the face and ribs, punches,
stabs, debilitating cuts to the tendons and muscles of his arm so he can't use that limb. Why so many attacks?
Because he might not feel the first 5. Thai boxers can take a
lot of abuse before they fall. Your partner’s job during all
this is to move around and slowly simulate attacking you if
you give him the opportunity. Don’t make it a sparring
match, though. It’s a drill for your benefit, not his.

Yes, he will be slippery with blood. Excellent point. I don’t
expect my grip to last long, but I don’t plan to stay there
long either. I can’t stay long, because he will soon break my
grip even without blood. One-hand grabs are easily
defeated.
 

> Are you grabbing to clear the limb for the
> stab? If so, I would suggest trapping with
> your alive hand by the elbow and angling
> off (if you hadn't already with the first cut)
> to the outside of the attacking limb. Your
> opponent would then have to cross
> centerline to grab your stab which would
> be very hard since you have half
> the distance to his throat and you started
> first.
>
Yes, that and to buy some time away from his primary
weapon.

This is a simple drill. You could add 1000 things to it to
make it better. The trapping is a fair comment, and it is a
good technique, but keep in mind that he can spin out of it.
He might even cut you as he spins out of it. He can also step
backwards, again perhaps cutting you. Now you’re back
where you started. That’s why the drill starts with you
grabbing his weapon-bearing limb. You’ve now bought
yourself a brief moment of time wherein you know exactly
where that knife is, and more importantly, you’re the one
controlling it.
As in the other drill, grabbing like this is not a primary
defense. You got lucky when you grabbed his wrist.
Because you can’t expect to get lucky again, the drill has
you going for an immediate killing blow.

If you’re going to base your counter-attack off a trap, consider the merits of total body adhesion versus a one-elbow pin. Wing
chun and escrima send their energy horizontally through the
opponent’s chest. Aiki-jitsu sends the energy around him, in
an arc. In both arts, the opponent has freedom to move.
Movement means counters and counter-attacks. When
doing hubud-lubud, who says you can’t step backwards and
turn your chest? Viola, you’ve countered his pin/punch
combination. If instead you were to trap and off-balance his
entire body rather than just his arm or just his torso, and if
you were to send your energy downward through his body,
then his opportunity for counter-movements will approach
nil. (What I just said is far more sophisticated that the drill we were talking about.)
 

> If he does catch your stab, what techs do
> you suggest to secure the release? Kicks,
> knees? Releasing the wrist and strike with
> alive hand?
>
The escape varies according to the position of your bodies.
Turning the wrist either clockwise or counter-clockwise
works. Stepping under his armpit opposite his knife hand,
and lifting his body up while simultaneously pushing your
knife hand down, will release his grab. (And puts you
behind him.) If his knife hand is above your knife hand, in
vertical alignment, slamming down on his “live” forearm
with his knife hand, while pulling your knife free, is good.
Reverse the positions so that you are on top. Now you can
forcefully raise his knife forearm into his “live” elbow, to
get a release.
There’s more, but I think these four will get you free from
every scenario.

As for other things, yes, slapping away his grabbing arm
works. The principle is “push/pull.” If you push in one
direction, and pull in the opposite direction, you can easily
break his grip. This principle applies to a myriad of
circumstances, such as the two vertical forearm slams mentioned in the prior paragraph. But, in this drill both hands were tied up, so a slap release was not an option.

By pulling your wrist into your body and twisting at the
hips, you can break his grip. However, in some scenarios,
you cannot do this while maintaining a secure hold on his
weapon-bearing wrist.

Kicking him will most likely jerk both your bodies in such a
way that he will break free of your grab. 



Date: 12/6/00 08:59:29 PM
Name: Anonymous

Email:

Subject: Re: beginning training drills
 
Scott,

Can you give more detail on just the aspect of grabbing the knife arm? What types of grabs do you find to be the most effective? Do you do a parry with one hand and guide the arm into the other hand and secure some type of wrist lock to secure for a disarm? Or are you just clamping the hands together like the jaws of a bear trap? Do you use the thumb and the web of your hand? Are your thumbs on top or on bottom? Do you train with chalk or paint to evaluate if you are getting cut on the arms?
What do you do if they are using reverse grip and they are not doing the ice-pick/Psycho attack but are slashing?

Thanks, those are nice drills.
Sovann 



Date: 12/7/00 09:39:01 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: Re: beginning training drills
 
> What types of grabs do you find to
> be the most effective? Do you do a
> parry with one hand and guide the
> arm into the other hand and secure
> some type of wrist lock to secure
> for a disarm?
>
Yes on the parry, sometimes. Say it’s a downward swing. I
wouldn’t want to stand still and catch it above my head.
That’s silly. I’d deflect the blow with one or both hands as I
step to the outside, and then secure it with both hands. Both
hands, not one, because at this point the attacker is at 100%
strength. He could immediately break free of a one-hand
grab. He’ll need some time to break free of a two-handed
grab. But say it’s a horizontal swing to my midsection. Then
there’s no need to parry. I can catch his forearm
immediately.

No on the immediate wrist lock. Only by happenstance can
you get an immediate wrist lock off a real person’s attack.
Wise men precede wrist locks with strikes and/or something
else to off-balance the attacker.

The “grab” varies according to the physical geometry of the
moment. It might be a “grab” in the ordinary sense of using
hands. Or, I might securely trap his arm to my body as if
we’re wrestling.
 

> Or are you just clamping the hands
> together like the jaws of a bear trap?
> Do you use the thumb and the web
> of your hand?
>
Yes, and yes. Dude tried to kill me, and this is not
television. I ain’t letting go, and I ain’t giving him his knife
back. Think caveman. “Knife hurts. Knife bad. Not let him
have knife.” I got lucky when I caught the knife. LUCKY.
Catching an incoming weapon like this is not a primary
defense technique. I don’t expect to get lucky again. That’s
why I’m not giving him the chance to use that knife again.
 

> Are your thumbs on top or on bottom?
>
Yes. On high grabs and high parries, fingers go up. On low
grabs and low parries, fingers go down. The thumb follows
accordingly.
 

> Do you train with chalk or paint to
> evaluate if you are getting cut on the arms?
>
I’ve never done this, because I’m not a sporting guy. I
understand the reason behind it, and I appreciate it, but if
you’re not sparring for a trophy, what does it matter if he
received 10 cuts and I received 12? As for drills like this,
you’ll know when you get cut. You’ll feel it. Chalk isn’t
necessary.
 

> What do you do if they are using reverse
> grip and they are not doing the
> ice-pick/Psycho attack but are slashing?
>
It’s much harder to grab his arm without getting cut. Same
idea though. Just work it, and remember to punch/kick him.
In a real attack, blows to the head will buy you time.
There’s no rule against adjusting your grip in between blows
to your partner. On the plus side, the attacker has to stand a
little closer to you in reverse grip, so it’s a little easier to
jam his swings. This can buy you the space you need to
avoid getting cut.