INCMA Forum Posts Archive 8:
 
Date: 12/5/00 10:39:19 PM
Name: Philip A. Payne

Email: fiw@angelfire.com

Subject: Tai Chi in N.J.
 
Hey,
I know a guy who lives in New Jersey, near Princeton. On a recent visit to Indiana, he stopped to see me. He told me he and his wife were interested in taking up Tai Chi, but were not sure where to look. Does any body on this forum know of a good Tai Chi teacher in that area?

Yours in the warrior tradition,
His hukble steward,
Philip A. Payne, benefactor. 



Date: 12/13/00 01:06:14 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: kicking4jc@aol.com

Subject: school grades / martial arts
 
Do any of your martial arts schools have any way of compesentating students with good grades in school?

My old school used to have the "demo team" and also the "black
belt club"

The Demo team was for any student who showed exceptional skill, good attitude and a school of a B average or better in every class. Demo team members were then allowed to do extra forms, musical forms, some certain weapons, and various extra advanced tumbling routines. Demo team members were then able to perform when we had scheduled demos. Members wore a red martial arts top on this club to be recognized.

Black belt club members had to maintain the B average or better every class as well. Students on this club had to teach an entire class on what ever the instructor chose, on that day, and then they would receive a belt w/ a long black stripe down the center, along with a patch showing their hard work. Black belt club members were encouraged to keep the grades up, and to at all times know their requirements for the instuctor could ask them to demonstrate at any time.

This encoraged students to do their best, to try to get patches, belts, and red tops. To do so, grades had to be the priority.

Also, w/ the martial arts, a lot of students grades did go up because of the martial arts, because our instructor always said, grades had to be first. Anyone of these two clubs if grades dropped to a C or below, had probation, until they got it back up, and if not, they could be excluded from the club.

So, what does your school do, and how does it work? 



Date: 12/16/00 11:16:15 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: school grades / martial arts
 
No, none of my schools ever did anything for good grades. It would be a good thing, though. You mentioned some good ideas. 



Date: 12/22/00 05:14:18 AM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: mixed matches
 
Has anyone ever participated in a mixed style sparring? By mixed style I mean punch/kick versus grabbing/wrestling. An example would be taekwondo versus judo. Has anyone ever watched a mixed style sparring live?
I'd like to know who won, and how. I'd like to know who lost, and why. I'd like to know what worked and what didn't. I'd also like to know the rules of the match, so that I can put this other information into perspective. 



Date: 12/22/00 10:50:21 AM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: mixed matches
 
Hi,
I never saw such a mixed match, but I do recall in my old school when we were sparring, our instructor allowed us to have some matches predetermined to have take downs, by any means possible. So therefore instead of our regular kicks and punches, we would try to put a sweep in there, and then pretend to procede to take them out, (no contact, or minimal)
For an example:

I punch Jon, and he punches, me w/ a kick, and i see he has his foot in the air, I can procede to come in as I block the kick, and take him down. Then as he is lying on the ground, I can axe kick him in the face, or drop my knee down in his throat or something, to make it seem as if the part when one is on the ground is more realistic. Therefore if it had been a real fight, he'd never get up quick enough for me to leave.
I know it's not like karate vrs judo or something like that, but we seemed to have fun with this new style of sparring once in a while when we were allowed.
Just a thought. 



Date: 12/29/00 03:49:15 PM
Name: Allen Sapp

Email: Sappjudo@netzero.net

Subject: Re: mixed matches
 
Dear Brother;

It has been a while since I have read the forum so I don't know if you will read this because of the time frame. In regards to your question. There was a match back in the 60's where a professional boxer fought a judo player. The match went several rounds until the boxer punched at the judo player and the judo player threw him to the ground and used a submission hold(a choking technique)to put him out and win(Yeah for judo!). That is the only recorded match that I am aware of. If you would like to see the video of that match, write me and I will give you the web site to see it. So, I guess you can say that boxing is a type of karate/etc. in that there are punches.

In His Service,

Brother Allen Sapp
Sappjudo@netzero.net 



Date: 12/29/00 07:11:53 PM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Re: mixed matches
 
Now that you mention it, in his heyday Muhammed Ali came to Japan and fought a well-known wrestler named Antonio Inoki (Italian father, Japanese mother). Inoki went on his back into a "crab" (called "spider" in our style) type position and began kicking Ali in the legs. The match was officially a draw, but the story is that Ali was in bed the whole next day with bruised legs. 



Date: 12/22/00 10:57:17 AM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: demo teams
 
Do any of you have a "Demo Team" or something like that?
What makes them noticed compared to other students?
Do they have certain rank requirements, school requirements, or a better performance in the martial arts of your style compared to other students?

What then do you do with your demo team? Do they have a certain class time, to practice? Do they do extra requirements, weapons, or what? Do you finally go out and actually perform demos?

My old school's demo team was a great thing. However, I got on it about a year before my instructor stepped down, and gave the school to someone else. We never did a demo with the original instructor. We had a special time for practice, to work on weapons (which we did kama and bo staff, occasionally numchukus). We also worked on various tumbling and flips. Tuck rolls, sholder rolls, back sholder rolls, front hand springs, whip overs, back presses, cartwheels, roundoffs, etc. These are how we started demos. We wore a red top, usually worn with black pants. In school grades had to be at a B level in each class or higher. That's what took me so long to get on, by the time I did, I was just a brown belt.

We did one demo with the new instructor, but he wasn't there with us. We went to a daycare and performed several things. It was short, and not really infomrative on some things I would have wanted to cover. As a Christian facility (as we said by our patches) I would have liked to talk about Christ as well, but we didn't. Christian music played though in the backgrounds of musical forms, such as Victory, and also in our tumbling.

I would like to know what you do as a "demo team".

Vicki 



Date: 01/9/01 09:54:49 PM
Name: Mark McGee

Email: mmcgee@gmaf.org

Subject: Re: demo teams
 
Our YMCA demo team is made up of most members of our T'ai Chi and Karate classes. We demonstrate basic, intermediate and advanced movements, defenses and weapons for audiences. Our main purpose is to show people what older adults can do with martial arts. Most of our class members are in their 40s and 50s.

Our T'ai Chi demonstration always gets a good crowd. People are fascinated by the slow, soft, graceful movements to music. We combine large group demos with individual demos to change the pace and keep people's interest. The Karate demos are traditional Okinawan and work well with the traditional T'ai Chi.

We have added a few people to our classes through demos, but we don't emphasize a demo team. We find something for everyone in the class to do and they appreciate that.

Thanks and have a great week!

Mark McGee
Grace Martial Arts Fellowship
http://www.gmaf.org/ 



Date: 12/22/00 10:57:45 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Could all fights become grappling?
 
I’ve thought long and hard about a certain issue of the fighting arts, and I’d like some
honest input. Putting all b.s. and bragging and egos aside, I request the honest Christian
input of everyone. I postulate that all fights either do or could go into the “grabbing
range” after two blows. For these purposes, I define “grabbing range” as the range in
which one person is close enough to grab hold of the body or clothing of his opponent.
Who out there agrees with me? Who doesn’t? Why? Have any of you ever seen or been
involved in a fight (sparring, tournament, playing, or real) which definitely did not or could
not enter into the grabbing range?

I’m especially interested in input from taekwondo and tang soo do stylists, because as a
rule, they favor kicking over punching. 



Date: 12/23/00 02:48:59 AM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
I'm going to agree with you 100% right from the start on this one, Scott. The only street fights I ever had (high school) turned into grappling, since I was a wrestler!

Because of my original background in wrestling and Judo, I've always thought throuout my Karate and Kung Fu training that any method of self-defense that didn't teach grappling was not realistic. I like your "grabbing range" term, and I doubt if even a good Korean kicking stylist could keep from being grabbed by a grappler. 



Date: 12/23/00 07:20:13 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
Not all Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo rely on more kicks than punches. I know this for a fact, from my style of martial arts where we were taekwondo but were encouraged to kick and punch in sparring matches.
In fact we had about 20 kicks, nine regular kicks, 2 180 kicks, 4 360 kicks, and 5 jump spin kicks.
Also we had about 15 various strikes, not counting blocks.
Yes, kicks did out number the punches, but we used both. Our style wasn't apart of the common misunderstanding that all taekwondo is simular to "olympic style sparring". Instead, ours was more simular to karate but instead of stopping after each point or strike, we continued until we were called to break. (Breaks were usually called after a particular time limit, or if we decided to practice point style sparring simular to competition style).

About the grappeling, not all fights lead to grappeling. Some people can be powerful enought to knock an apponet out with powerful blows of kicks and punches, and knock them cold to the ground, and walk away, before they awake again.
Others can cause excessive damage to a person by breaking their nose, breaking various limbs, or by stopping their breathing to get away from the situation.

About ground fighting however, they say 90% of all "street fights" will end up on the ground, so knowing how to roll out them to avoid getting striked on dangerous area, learning to sweep while on the ground, and also grappling skills can be a vital asset to survival. Grappeling skills can be very helpful in the fact of someone short, being pinned to the ground by someone who outweighs them. Learning strikes and such while on the ground are not as easily to execute. Learning them on the ground can be a key to survival. Power is less while in that position, so knowing where to strike can determine who will live and get to saftey.

That's just my thought, being a 1st Dan in Taekwondo.

Vicki 



Date: 12/24/00 02:08:06 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: need clarification
 
I postulated that all fights COULD go into the grabbing range AFTER two blows. (If you think 3 is a better number, fine. I won't argue that.) This allows for a fight to end after one or two kicks. I agree that a fight very well could end after one solid kick to the ribs, or knee cap, or a solid punch to the nose or neck, or a strike to any of several other targets.

But, because an unconscious person could be grabbed, I'm not sure why you "disagree" with my theory. Knocking someone out on your second punch would conform to my theory, not contradict it. Maybe you just misunderstood my first posting. 



Date: 12/24/00 04:26:27 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: need clarification
 
No, I think you misunderstood me.
I never said it would take two punches or kicks, or punch/kick or kick/punch to knock someone out, but I said, it could happen.
I know personally, I couldn't knock someone out in few strikes.

What I said, is if you are the one fighting someone in self defence, and you do knock them out in a punch, why would you risk grappeling him on the ground when he could regain consciounece. ( I appologize for the spelling. It is one of my weeknesses.)

If you are fighting, and one does end up on the ground, and you fear he may bet back up, or if he knocks you to the ground, grappeling can help you to get out of the situation, yes.
But not all fights have to require grappeling skills.

QUESTION:
What is your defination of grappeling, that may be where you think I misunderstood your question. My understanding of grappeling is when you have two on the ground fighting, to get out of it. If that's not it, then I don't know your term of "grappeling".

After all, a good majority of INCMA members seem to think I know nothing at all.

Vicki 



Date: 12/24/00 06:37:46 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: need clarification
 
We both agree that a fight COULD/MIGHT end after a couple blows, be they punches or kicks. We agree on this. My question to you, as a black belt and especially as a taekwondo person, is simply, if you and Joe Citizen are fighting, and your first two kicks/punches don't knock him out, can you swear that Joe would not then be able to grab your arm or shirt?

Now, it might be that Joe Citizen doesn't want to grab you. It might be that he is also a taekwondo person, and would rather kick at you some more. So what. That does not violate my original postulation. "I don't want to grab" does not mean that "I can't grab."

I never said anything about going to the ground. I postulated that after two blows, one person would then be able to GRAB hold of the body or clothing of the other person. For convience of conversation I defined this as the "grabbing range." Grab hold of, not fall to the ground and wrestle. Grabbing hold of the other person does not imply that they fall to the ground and wrestle. There are a 1000 ways to "grapple" (to use your word) while standing up. I grapple standing up, not rolling on the floor.

I do want you input on this question. I left taekwondo nine years ago. You're still in it, and you're a black belt. You, therefore, know things about taekwondo strategy that I don't know. It's that information, that "how" of fighting, that I'm after. 



Date: 12/26/00 01:28:43 PM
Name: Kevin D. Schaller

Email: kevin@vistaprimo.com

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
In my flavor of Kenpo, within the first 2-3 movements, I will be within grasping range and likely to be applying either a joint lock or pressure point strike. I try NOT to actually go to the ground, as I am conditioned to law enforcement applications.

Be safe, go in peace.
Kev 



Date: 12/29/00 03:56:45 PM
Name: Allen Sapp

Email: Sappjudo@netzero.net

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
Dear Brother Scott;

It's me again. I am in agreement with you in regards to grappling work. The key is in your phrase "the first couple of punches". If a punching or kicking technique is not adequate enough within the first couple of punches then the opponent is within grabbing distance and grappling takes place. Just look at the sport(if you can call it that)of extreme boxing or what ever other name they use. While all the matches begin with punches and kicks, the vast majority are won by grappling techniques. Granted they may take some one out while they are punching and kicking, but it is almost always from the grappling position and not from a standing position. It does happen from time to time but not the majority of the time. The money so to speak is always on the one who has grappling as an intergal part of their technique.

In His Service,

Brother Allen Sapp 



Date: 01/2/01 09:28:54 PM
Name: USJMKA

Email: USJMKA@juno.com

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
In the best of all possible worlds, the striking artist has conditioned the striking parts of his body, has become a master of how and where to strike his oncoming opponent with regard to any scenario (a long and arduous study of kata/hyung and of the human body), and has trained to such a degree that his quickness is phenomenal. Given that scenario, a master striking artist is very dangerous to any opponent. If modern circumstances are factored in -- failure to toughen the striking parts, disinterest in the vital areas and how (and when) to strike them, an almost total ignorance of the finer parts of kata/hyung training and a refusal to diligently train in and learn them, and our tendency to be more like boxers/kickboxers in that the stances are different and the shifting within the "fighting stance" is really not like Karate at all, it's easy to see how grapplers have won such admiration and advantage. It is my fundamental belief that striking arts such as Karate/Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do were not originally designed for the competitive ring, and are not designed for attack - only counterattack, and are strongest when countering. A true Karate fighter should have trained for countless hours on how to respond decisively to an oncoming attack of any kind, and his response should include a deadly counterattack. His general technique would not be jointlocking, but fiercely attacking his opponent's vital areas - which can be effectively accomplished from the mount, guard, or side. There are kata which include counters while on the ground. The Karate fighter on the ground simply continues to strike or apply pressure to the vital areas of his opponent -- the neck, back of head, armpits, groin, eyes, throat; he can slap the ears, grab the testicles of his opponent, thrust a finger into his anal opening ( really a last resort); he can bite, pinch the nipples without mercy, and do whatever he has to do to force his opponent to release him. The Bubishi teaches very effective techniques regarding how to respond to an opponent attempting to tackle or "take it to the ground."
I'll close with a story I've read and heard many times - I hope that it is true. Itosu, Funakoshi's master, was 75 years old when he was challenged by a 31 year old Judo champion. The Judo players of the Kodokan had humbled every Ju Jitsu player they had faced. Their practice of randori had proven very effective over the static training methods of Ju Jitsu. Itosu reportedly had killed at least three men in "faceoffs" during his life, for which he had deeply repented. After several minutes of taunting the old man, the Judo champion rushed in to grapple Itosu. Itosu swiftly - almost effortlessly - shifted into a broad front stance, screamed with a blood-curdling "Kiai!", and masterfully buried a well-trained and conditioned reverse punch deep into the solar plexus of the Judo champion, who crumpled helplessly to the ground. Let me repeat grandmaster Yoo Jin Kim of a bygone era of Tae Kwon Do, "Spend your life and become the master of one technique - a man cannot stop what he cannot see .... "
I bow to you ..... 



Date: 01/4/01 04:12:43 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Re: ultimate karate
 
You're right, "[i]n the best of all possible worlds." Given that assumption, I have to agree with you. But do I correctly understand you to say that until the karate-type martial artist has reached the top level of his art, or nearly the top, then his fights will always enter the grabbing range?

> It is my fundamental belief that striking arts
> such as Karate/Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do were not
> originally designed for the competitive ring,
> and are not designed for attack - only counterattack,
> and are strongest when countering.
>
Interesting! I've suspected this for a long time, but I've never mentioned it to anyone. The taekwondo I learned just didn't feel right when I attacked. I thought it was probably the way I did it, because I never mastered the performance, but yet, a spark of latent intuition deep down inside me kept wispering "counter-attack ... counter-attack ... it's supposed to be a counter-attack." Very interesting. 



Date: 01/4/01 09:47:41 PM
Name: USJMKA

Email: USJMKA@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: ultimate karate
 
I think a savvy fighter who is trained or experienced in groundfighting will take an ill-prepared stand-up fighter to the ground in a heartbeat. Two novices often end up in a standing slugfest, never thinking about going to the ground. My experiences with many "tough-guy" types who tried to crash sparring night saw them coming across as amateur boxers - not wanting to go to the ground themselves. One of the techniques taught in the Bubishi regarding defending against being taken down is to immediately grab the testicles of the opponent until a release is forced - which means to attempt to keep your arms inside his arms. Musashi called that "creating the void." Most advanced Karateka should have a well-practiced plan if it goes to the ground. "Never grapple a grappler." Striking and pressure-point tactics will work on the ground if practiced. Many of the Kata teach elbow-and-knee techniques in clinching range. Pinching and twisting the lower lip without mercy, tearing the ear off, ripping the nostril, tearing open the corner of the mouth, thrusting fingernails into the gums, pulling out the eyebrows and eyelashes, piercing the armpits with finger and spear-hand techniques, even ripping out the armpit hair - Karateka should work on these and other techniques from the guard position. Gojushiho Kata (O Ship Sa Bo hyung) teaches a unique double-fist thrust to the heart area of an assailant rushing in to tackle. The idea is to create a shock to the nervous system of the attacker - which, of course, assumes well-conditioned hands and a well-placed blow to the proper area. The Bubishi teaches slapping both the ears of the attacker. Empi/Wanshu Kata (Yeon Bi hyung) teaches a "fireman's carry" throw to thwart the attacker attempting to tackle. A careful study of Bassai Kata (Pal Sek hyung) will reveal an "arm-drag" technique as a defense, and Un Su Kata (Jang Jin hyung) teaches simply falling to the ground while kicking to the opponent's abdomen .... I'd better stop here ....
Yes - I think the striker can easily find himself in grappling range, and should train very hard in the techniques already available to him to learn how to deal with that scenario. Instead of spending time training in other drills, the Karateka should study these countless scenarios and the ready-made responses to them - IMHO.
Hey - God bless, my friend. 



Date: 01/9/01 09:41:36 PM
Name: Mark McGee

Email: mmcgee@gmaf.org

Subject: Re: Could all fights become grappling?
 
Your question caught my attention as I read through postings tonight. I spent many years studying and teaching Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do. We spent little time learning or practicing grappling arts. We trained to take out attackers with powerful kicking and striking combinations. If we were taken to the ground, we would use our legs and arms to kick and punch our way out of a hold. I did meet a Korean master of Hap Ki Do who showed me that some Koreans know how to grapple.

I have since studied Chinese, Japanese and Okinawan martial arts that place more emphasis on the grappling nature of combat. One of my teachers (Shaolin Kenpo) said that at least 80% of most fights end up on the ground. He emphasized close range fighting. Another of my teachers (Yon Ch'uan) developed a defense system he calls Three Zone Defensive Tactics. It's based on the three major zones that we deal with when someone attacks. The third zone is out of reachable space. The second zone is within reachable space. The first zone is nose to nose, toe to toe. It's the zone that is the most dangerous for unarmed assaults. That kind of fighting often goes to the ground. Another teacher (Aikido) showed me how he could join to any attack and become like water, redirecting the attack and adding force to force to send the attacker flying in another direction.

One of the most interesting martial arts systems I've studied so far is T'ai Chi Ch'uan (Hwa Yu). The forms are based on 1st and 2nd zone combat and are filled with grappling techniques. It's interesting to watch new students faces when we demonstrate the slow, soft, graceful, peaceful T'ai Chi form, then demonstrate some fighting applications. We can join and stick to the attacker, entangle them, redirect them and send them into emptiness. We can tie them up, use their own strength and force against them, uproot them and drive them into the ground.

That's a long answer to your question, but I agree that many if not most real fights will go to the ground. I think it's great for any martial artist to have training in every aspect of aggressive human movement, including grappling.

Have a great week!

Mark McGee
Grace Martial Arts Fellowship
http://www.gmaf.org/ 



Date: 12/27/00 06:22:20 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: verses
 
For those of you who are in a Christian school do any of your schools use verses for belts or sash meanings? Do they have any verses that pertain to martial arts weapons, sparring, or any other martial arts concepts? Do you have a certain verse you use for oaths or school themes? What I mean by themes are mottos, like for an example: Phillipines 4:13, I can do all things through Christ. as a theme for you to remind you what you are, or what you can do?

I have had some ideas, but new ideas are coming to me, and soon I'll be looking at each of them individually to see which may work for a possible future school.

Vicki 



Date: 01/3/01 05:04:15 PM
Name: USJMKA

Email: USJMKA@juno.com

Subject: Re: Should Christians draw blood?
 
Anyone who steps into a ring should give it everything he has. No one grows if he isn't challenged. Solomon in Ecclesiastes says, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." It's better to bleed in a controlled environment and learn from that experience, than to bleed otherwise ....
Training as a fighter or for self-defense is not unbiblical. E-mail me for books on the subject written by Christian martial artists who are scholarly men. 



Date: 01/22/01 07:37:28 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Should Christians draw blood?
 
Don't forget:

"Chicks dig scars."
-George Schaal 



Date: 01/22/01 01:56:32 AM
Name: John R. Himes

Email: yohane@eolas-net.ne.jp

Subject: Re: Re: Should Christians draw blood?
 
I began my career in the Asian martial arts in the early 1970's, an era when we had no protective equipment. The tournaments were non-contact in name only, and contestants were disqualified only if their opponents were bleeding or clearly unconscious. How good was I? Let's just say I'm probably the only guy in the INMCA who has been KO'd in four sports: wrestling, Judo, Karate and Kung Fu! For more about that great era read Dr. Charles Owen's fascinating article on the INMCA website. I wonder if we ever fought each other in a tournament? Nah.

In later years my teacher went into the internal kung styles of kung fu, though my friends and I continued to practice the shaolin forms of his early years, banding into the Temple Chinese Boxing Association (TCBA) in 1993. My teacher began to realize something as he practiced and taught the internal drills and principles. The old days of all out fighting and rough training had instilled a certain fear of pain and injury into the students from those days. When we did "pushing hands" and similar drills with Sifu he would notice us flinching and wincing instead of "listening" for our partner's movements and "energy." It is for this reason that in his organization (Chinese Boxing Institute International, CBII) and my own TCBA, all out, full-contact sparring is reserved for advanced students and is done with full protective equipment. The average student should learn how to get hit and what pain is, certainly, but does not really need to have his blood shed or be otherwise injured to learn good self-defense skills.

As "USJMKA" says, there is nothing in the Bible that forbids full-contact sparring, kick-boxing, "reality-based" training or even professional fighting. The Apostle Paul, for example, refers to the ancient Roman/Greek martial arts in a positive way several times. Also, self-defense is, of course, a completely Biblical thing to do and teach. (See my GMAU pamphlet, "Christian Philosophy of Self-Defense.") However, if we are thinking of the good of our students and their progress in self-defense skills, we will use light sparring for most students instead of full contact or kick-boxing. We may instill fear in our students by the "shedding of blood."

John R. Himes 



Date: 01/7/01 09:44:59 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: uniforms *speciality*
 
Do any of you know of websites to get uniforms that are demo team looking or anything more than just solid colored plain uniforms that you can see pictures of? I know of one on awma's site that is red and black and another that is white and black, but I am looking to see if there are any more out there.

So far the ones I have seen are Century, and AWMA's sites. If you know of any please send me the link.

Thank you,
Vicki 



Date: 01/9/01 10:54:37 PM
Name: USJMKA

Email: USJMKA@juno.com

Subject: Re: uniforms *speciality*
 
THE BOLD LOOK out of Miami, FL has a vast assortment of demo uniforms - probably the most I've ever seen. Also, Century has recently published a "specialty" catalog with demo uniforms along with trophies, mats, boxing rings, etc. 



Date: 01/10/01 06:50:15 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: uniforms *speciality*
 
Do you know of a website such uniforms are on. (The Bold one from Miami?)
Thanks for the Century info. I think they may have more now than before.
Thanks.
Vicki 



Date: 01/15/01 03:32:43 AM
Name: Miguel

Email: fbco@pacbell.net

Subject: Custom Uniforms
 
Grace and Peace,

Looking for a supplier that will make custom made uniforms of larger sizes (3X or 4X). Does anyone know of any?

Thanks 



Date: 01/15/01 02:46:23 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: Custom Uniforms
 
I was looking for speciality demo team uniforms, other than Century and Awma's Proforce that I already saw, and someone suggested The Bold Look.
He emailed me, and the address is http://www.boldlook.net/
They have a variety of colored uniforms and many others.

I don't know about the sizes of 3X and 4X
but I saw sizes of 9-12 which they say is a "large" size.

Hope it helps, maybe?

Vicki 



Date: 01/8/01 08:37:55 AM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: A new way to look at forms?
 
I'd like to hear some opinions on an obsrvation I've recently made. It seems there is always a lot of debate and disagreement over the value of forms, katas, patterns,etc.
Personally, I've not really been one to favor forms. It always seemed to me that their value was very limited. Then I went thru a period of thinking that forms were totally useless. After that , "an awakening"' I had heard from a couple of instructors that I greatly respect that maybe forms weren't so useless after all and that perhaps we had been throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as they say. It's funny how sometimes we can come full circle in our thinking as we get older and hopefully more mature. I must say I still haven't been a big fan of forms, except perhaps from a historical perspective, but recently I've been exploring a new way of looking at forms. That is, forms as freelance. If anyone has ever seen any of Eric Knauss' tapes you can see him perform what appear to be some very intricate and powerful forms. Come to find out later that these are just Eric "creating" or ad-libbing on the spot . They are beautiful to watch and really striking in the mastery he posseses. I began to feel that this is would kata or forms could and should be at their best. The enhancing of visualization, the creativity, the understanding of the moves were all made clearer, I feel, In a way that traditional forms are often touted but to my mind, missing. Now you can't just go and start creating forms out of the blue, but with a nice progression of (real fighting) technique, an understanding comes about which helps the practitioner create his own form, with no two being the same and each one an original. Hopefully not goreing anyone's ox, but I'd like to hear some comments on this? God Bless. 



Date: 01/8/01 09:59:12 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
I love performing forms. When they are done correctly with smoothness & power they are beautiful. I have started to use them as my warm-up. If done with strength you can really get a good warm-up. I have discovered that if a student knows and understands what the movement is for (i.e. what you are blocking)then it makes more sense. When you understand what each movement is for then you can start visualizing fighting off multiple attackers while performing your form.

I have also found that practicing forms has helped many of my students with coordination & concentration. Not everyone can be a great fighter; forms is something that most can work at and excell at. This can be very important for students with a confidence problem.

And don't forget that the breathing techniques involved in forms is very important in fighting.

Since I'm not into regular arts (paintings, sculptures, opera and the like) I use forms (the ART in Martial Arts). With TaeKwonDo being turned into more of a Sport (Olympics) I want to keep alive the Art in Martial Arts.

David 



Date: 01/8/01 10:44:20 AM
Name: Chris

Email:

Subject: Re: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
But (depending upon your experience) have you ever tried creating your own forms, on the spot. It seems to me this could be a better way to look at forms. Something like shadow-boxing where a fighter tries to see in his minds eye his opponent attacking, and the necessary counters or follow-ups. You see the problem I have with much of the traditional forms as they are taught is that the meaning can be lost, hidden or even intentionally withheld to create a shroud of mystery, making it all seem more exotic. When you spontaneously create something intuitively, you immediately understand all the components of the form and the whole thing is demystified, possibly to the chagrin of some (pointing no fingers). Admittedly, there probably has to be a degree of maturity of understanding within a system. I don't see it as something a beginner could comprehend. Chris 



Date: 01/9/01 04:51:45 PM
Name: Sifu Mark Messare

Email: messare@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
Hey Guys:
I say this subject and couldn't resist talking about forms. IN my system (Ving Tsun) there are 3 open hand forms which all have meaning. The first one especially Sil Nim Tau teaches many concepts that are essential for the Ving Tsun practicioner. However I also love shadow boxing and creating my own pattern or fighting invisible opponents. It is always best to imagine 4 or five at a time. (Ha Ha) Also as far as creating forms goes I have a style that is supposed to be just for adults but I have made forms that are shorter so that the kids can enjoy the techniques. I call these forms the Panda forms but thier just a series of techniques put together to remember the specific movements the student is working on. I love forms because like a song it helps you to remember several ideas that could be forgotten otherwise. Mark 



Date: 01/8/01 03:07:34 PM
Name: Vicki

Email: Kicking4JC@aol.com

Subject: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
I have always liked doing forms, coming from a style of 22 forms from white belt to the last rank requirement in red belt, just before black belt.
Our forms had various styles mixed in with them.
Pyungahn (all five of them), Chul Kee (all three of them) and a few others are simular to either Shotokan or Tang Soo Do.
Other forms I have no clue where ethey come from. Some of them are probably Korean, and others not sure.

We had single person katas and then double man katas.
So with having that many I focused on that more than anything. I liked them better because I wasn't much of a fighter, being only 5'2" and weight as much as most of the taller female fighters, (for some reason they say 135 is heavy) I never did that great.

I like to make up my own katas to music too. I do it often when I listen to my upbeat Christian music, and I make up self defense patters to them. I then mix several sets together, and see how they move. Nothing is set in stone in video or writing on how any of these look, but I enjoy doing it.

I dont' know why, or if it's right or not, but I do believe that katas are great.

Katas help me focus on what I am doing, work on enduarace and muscle strength.
I was best at teaching katas in my old school too.

Not sure if this helps any.
Vicki 



Date: 01/9/01 10:10:49 PM
Name: Mark McGee

Email: mmcgee@gmaf.org

Subject: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
I see value in forms at the beginning of training someone in the martial arts. It helps them to understand balanced, centered movement. It also helps them feel part of something that's bigger and older than they are. The goal is "formless," but if we want to teach and introduce novices into the arts, we need to help them learn forms. Many of the old Chinese and Okinawan masters learned only one, two or three forms and practiced them all their lives. However, what they pulled out of those forms was phenomenal. That's a key to practicing and teaching forms. We need to understand each form thoroughly. The older systems of teaching would have students practice "basics" for two or three years before they would learn their first form. Students would study one form for one to two years before learning the next form. Since some systems had only one, two or three forms and students were practicing each for a year or two before learning the next one, those students were powerful in their abilities. They learned how to punch, kick, throw, project, hold, choke, lock, and break with every movement of each form. Many modern systems move classes through forms so quickly that students don't know much about the wealth inherent in each form. The so-called "secrets" of martial arts are not usually secret. They are only hidden from those who pass by without opening their eyes.

Thanks and have a great week!

Mark McGee
Grace Martial Arts Fellowship
http://www.gmaf.org/ 



Date: 01/15/01 07:42:39 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: A new way to look at forms?
 
As many of you may know from my previous posts, my school of Chinese Martial Arts is very dependent upon our forms, but we only have one main form. This form has 108 postures in it. The important thing to remember about forms is what they teach us:

1. How to move.
2. How to perform various strikes.
3. How to transition from one technique to another with poise, balance, and effective combat skill.

Of course, I consider the third to be the most valuable, since the other two can be taught with basics routines. I repeat often to my class: "We are learning a way to move." Forms don't just teach movements, but a WAY of moving.

The problem with most schools of martial arts is this: they teach a form as a block, as though it is a situation in which 18 people are attacking you and this is what you do... Of course, that is stupid. In Taoist Chinese martial arts especially, the forms are divided into postures, not techniques. The fun is in getting form one posture to another.

Why do I mention this? I often create new forms and enjoy doing so with both open hand and weapon forms. However, because of the structure of our forms, this consists in nothing but changing the order of the postures. Now it is like a puzzle: how do I get from this posture to THAT one in the most efficient manner? This allows the creation of forms to be something that teaches you, instead of something which just reviews anew things we already know.

Another problem which frustrates many students is the "cloning process" of "stick man" fighters. This is most apparent in Karate and TaeKwonDo. This is what happens when an instructor demands a student to do a technique just like so, with no compensation for different body styles or situations. A master in my old Karate school had a great attitude. If we asked, "How do we do this technique?" He would say, "Well, let me see how you are doing it." We would demonstrate, and unless there was an actual technical deficiency, he would just nod and say, "Yep, that's how YOU do it."

I know it isn't popular with all the hucksters out there, but I think that creating your own forms is very fun and valuable. Just remember to do it to learn and not just for variety or to "invent" something. Believe me, Solomon's words "There is nothing new under the sun," are especially apparent in the realm of martial arts.

For a good body workout, shadow box with an opponent or two (or imagine that you're fighting the Sinister Six - just have fun)... for a good mind workout and a challenge, try doing a form backwards or reversed, or make up your own. It'll be fun, I promise.

-Marc Paine
SWY Wudang Taijiquan 



Date: 01/19/01 10:01:34 AM
Name: David Lieder

Email: dlieder@rmi.net

Subject: Mats
 
Does anyone know where I can find some used (Cheap), soft, throwing mats.

Thanks,
David 



Date: 01/22/01 07:31:32 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Mats
 
Ditto that.



Date: 01/23/01 10:20:04 AM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: Japanese-Chinese translation
 
I need to know the Chinese name for a very popular technique that I know shows up in Chinese martial arts. The technique is a wrist lock that is considered a throw. The palm is turned up, the wrist is further twisted so the palm angles toward the outside, and pressure is applied to the back of the hand so as to push the palm to the floor if that were possible. It's not possible. That's why the person falls.

In aikido and jiu-jitsu and other Japanese arts, it's called "kote gaeshi." It's one of the first things a jiu-jitsu student learns. In English-language systems it's called "outer wrist throw." I saw a chin-na book that called it the "reverse wrist press." This same technique is taught in hapkido and arnis. I know for certain this very same wrist lock/throw is part of the various Chinese kung fu systems. It's probably taught everywhere on the planet.

What do the Chinese kung fu practitioners call it?
Thanks for your help. 



Date: 01/23/01 04:34:40 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: Japanese-Chinese translation
 
I'm not sure I can help you, since in one instance in Qin Na it might be a component of a larger technique such as swallow skimming the water and in another instance it might be part of something else. Chinese arts are funny that way. We have several different terms for specific manipulations of joints and cavities, like presses or squeezes or rending and locking, but these are usually just generic terms until applied to the location they are to be used on. I usually just call it Kote Gaeshi, since I took Aiki for a while. LOL

You are right, though, about it being a very common technique. I will tell you, however, that I've found differences in the way it is practiced between Aiki and Qin Na. In Japanese styles the wrist is lowered to the Dan Tien and then twisted for low leverage, while in most Qin Na techniques, the arm is extended and the wrist is locked tighter, with less twisting. Just an observation, but I like the Japanese way better (don't tell anybody!) *shhhhh*

I will tell you about a similar lock that you would probably enjoy, since you like Kote Gaeshi. It is like its opposite, and you may know it:

X stands in an offensive stance facing Y, also in offensive stance with forward hand high (open hand - TKD or Chinese style) and back hand low.

X uses right hand to grab Y's forward hand, thumb to thumb (X's pinky will be up). X steps left foot forward and uses right hand to twist Y's hand clockwise, pressing the bones of the pinkie and ring finger into the wrist, locking the joint in the wrist.

X places left hand on Y's elbow, pressing and holding the elbow toward the pinkie and wrist. X lowers Y to the ground straight downward, with only a slight (very slight - this isn't a twisting technique like Nikkyo) twist downward of the wrist. If done too quickly or forcefully, however, it can damage Y's shoulder and wrist.

I love this technique, because it is so fast and easy and teaches people not to stick their hand out there unless they want someone to grab it. *grin*

Have fun, and be safe! 



Date: 01/24/01 12:29:29 PM
Name: Scott

Email: tarmangani@msn.com

Subject: generic terms?
 
So, what are the generic terms for "kote gaeshi" ? I need to know.

Yes, I too have seen several variations of kote gaeshi. Minor differences. For a given opponenent, one way probably works best. But change the opponenet, and maybe another way is better. 



Date: 01/26/01 04:57:25 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Re: generic terms?
 
Well, the technique by itself is sometimes called the Reverse Wrist Press (I can look up the Chinese on that for you, but I don't use Chinese as a rule except for basic terms... when your martial art has a four-character name for EVERYTHING... you just learn to not care). The individual elements are Cai (Snatching) and maybe Chan (coiling or winding), and Ji (pressing) though I don't consider the twist to be Chan... many call it that however.

Like I said, it is really not set in stone in our art... that is why I call it Kote Gaeshi... its cleaner. 



Date: 01/23/01 04:37:28 PM
Name: Marc Paine

Email: lsf1517@juno.com

Subject: Favorite Locks/Throws and Anatomical Knowledge
 
Two questions:

1. What is your favorite lock/submission/throw? Why? Describe it.

2. How important do you think anatomical knowledge (beyond the superficial) is to martial arts instruction? How about general sports medicine/chinese medicine/sports massage and therapy?